How Can You Politely Say, "Your Character Sucks?"

[Kzach]

No they don't. There are people out there who play rpgs for the roleplaying. Maybe he has put 14s in a ton of different stats. Maybe he wants to be well-rounded. Whatever, it's his character and it's his choice.

It's not his choice at all. It's a group game. Being the lone-wolf chaotic neutral my way or the highway "I'M TEH ROLE PLAYA!!!!!11!" type is disruptive and annoying.

Which as was shown in another thread is fine if that's what the group dynamic is all about, but most people think such people are just selfish dicks.

 

[Hunter In Darkness]

Which as was shown in another thread is fine if that's what the group dynamic is all about, but most people think such people are just selfish dicks.

As are folks who demand you optimize your pc to suit their tastes in how it should be built.

 

[Pig Champion]

It's not his choice at all. It's a group game. Being the lone-wolf chaotic neutral my way or the highway "I'M TEH ROLE PLAYA!!!!!11!" type is disruptive and annoying.

Which as was shown in another thread is fine if that's what the group dynamic is all about, but most people think such people are just selfish dicks.

Yeah, it is his choice, if it isn't then why not just have the DM hand out characters.

But you're right, it is a group game and as apart of the game you work together as a group to solve any and all problems that come your way so a 14 stat makes little difference when you have 3-5 other players backing you up.

I tend to think it's the people whom enforce a style of play on everybody are the ones who are selfish. If you want to mix-max, cool but it somebody doesn't then that should be just as acceptable.

 

[malraux]

It is quite reasonable to question someone who is new to the rules about some of their choices if they appear uncertain. Either the player understands the rules well enough to know that a 14 Int isn't the best choice and did it on purpose or he doesn't grok something about the way the rules work. If he understands that the stat is suboptimal, then he'll be able to explain why he chose it, but more importantly, he'll understand why someone would question that. If he doesn't understand the rules, then he gets a chance to fix his character. Neither of those strike me as inherently offensive.

 

[Glyfair]

Which gets back to my original point. Ask. Nicely, politely, in a whisper during the game, just ask. "Why did you put a 14 in your Int?"

Would people honestly get offended by this question?

Some might.

I think the best way to handle it is to turn your question around to have him asking about your character. I doubt many would be offended by being asked "Why did you put 20 in your Strength?"

On the other hand, suggesting to someone that there character is bad because of this design is something I know some would do. Turning that around would have someone come up to them and suggesting their character is bad because it is an optimized bunch of numbers instead of a character because of their design. That would probably offend many, if not most.

 

[outsider]

Don't tell him his character sucks. He'll(quite justifiably) take that personally. If anything, discuss the build not the character. That way you are talking about the mechanics, and not his rp, background, etc. Additionally, don't say it sucks. Point out the specific problems he'll have, and why a high intelligence would be better. I'd probably point out that on a swordmage increasing his int will increase the following about his character: attack, damage, ac, and reflex defence. Attack, damage, and AC just happen to be the most important stats in the game, so boosting int on a swordmage is a VERY good idea. Heck, I nearly always put a -20- in int or dex when I'm playing a character that uses it for it's attacks, and I think very hard about doing it on con attackers as well.

Here's my guess why he has low int: He's playing an assault swordmage, and didn't notice the Intelligent Blademaster feat, thus he improved his str instead. It's also possible that he thought it was a waste of a feat. If so, point out to him that feats are an abundant resource in 4th edition, and attributes most definitely are not an abundant resource.

If he doesn't want to listen, there's not much you can do aside from letting him see it for himself. You may want to do that before bringing it up anyways. Alternatively, offer character tweaking advice to the entire group, and see if he asks for your help.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

It's not his choice at all. It's a group game. Being the lone-wolf chaotic neutral my way or the highway "I'M TEH ROLE PLAYA!!!!!11!" type is disruptive and annoying.

what about "My way or the highway you mus be this min/max to play this game" type annoying disruptive players?

How can anyone without having seen the problem, without even knowing the full sheet make an informed descion??

Which as was shown in another thread is fine if that's what the group dynamic is all about, but most people think such people are just selfish dicks.

kinda like those selfish people who tell other players there characters aren't built right???



What if he is playing a high con trading defence for offence?
What if he is still effective thfough other means?
Who made you or anyone else incharge of what is a correct build or not?


If I walked in with my half elf swordmage (who started with a 16 INT) walked into your game with a kopesh, and someone else walked in with a 14 INT swordmage with a long sword what would the diffrence be? from what I can tell that would be 2 pts of damage per hit (1 from INt and one from brutal)

Now having played my half elf I know he was damn good, and in LFR I had people asking for me to defend for them...so I know it wasn't holding anyone back. So what is 2 pts of damage worth?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

maybe you can stealth fix this without ever taalking to the PC, talk to the DM. Ask him to have one of the first items to drop be a +1 luckblade (fill in the blank with his chosen weapon)

a +1 luckblade Longsword would give a small bonus to accuracy and give a nice d8 cirt (as appose to the generic d6)...

 

[Kzach]

kinda like those selfish people who tell other players there characters aren't built right???

Your turning what I said into a badwrongfun statement, which it isn't at all.

I consider creating an effective character a social obligation when you're in a group who all creates effective characters.

If you're in a group who doesn't care about succeeding at their goals and who is happy to have characters die every other session and constantly fail at the challenges presented to them, bully for you.

But in most groups, failing to succeed at the mission or defeat the enemies or being unable to complete the challenges presented to you is the antithesis of fun. So you have one person in a group going against the grain because of... what? Because they want to 'roleplay' a dunce?

Do it in some other group that thinks roleplaying is somehow superior to rolling dice, killing stuff and taking its loot. Where fluffy bunnies are considered dangerous enemies and cats can kill you with one swipe of their vicious claws.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I think therein lies the problem.

None of us know if the player in question made his decision based on knowledge of the system or ignorance. If the player conciously made the choice to play with lower stats, that's perfectly groovy. However, if the player did it because he thought that having all stats at 12-14 was mechanically better than having a better prime stat, then a bit of advice is not remiss. In other words, until you know why he did what he did, you cannot really know if it was a mistake or not.

Which gets back to my original point. Ask. Nicely, politely, in a whisper during the game, just ask. "Why did you put a 14 in your Int?"

Would people honestly get offended by this question?

I have no problem with people asking me why I designed a PC the way I did, as long as the question isn't pointed.

e.g. "Why did you put a 14 in your PC's Int when that means he's going to suck?"

If the followup to my explanation is polite, no harm, no foul.

If, OTOH, I get the stinkeye and unsolicited advice, then I'll be telling you where to go.

It's not his choice at all. It's a group game. Being the lone-wolf chaotic neutral my way or the highway "I'M TEH ROLE PLAYA!!!!!11!" type is disruptive and annoying.

Which as was shown in another thread is fine if that's what the group dynamic is all about, but most people think such people are just selfish dicks.

Its a group game, but people bring their own pieces, as it were. And unless the DM says otherwise, what they bring to the table is none of your business.

For all you know, that seemingly suboptimal PC has a HR boon from the DM that will more than offset the hinderance.

But even if it doesn't...its still none of your business.

If you think it still is, consider what you'd do if you were told by your DM that you were using point buy for stats, but your main class' key stat had to be the class minimum. Or what it would be like to be the sole powergamer in a group of amateur thespians.

If you don't like someone's playstyle so much because it doesn't mesh with your preferred style- because he's the lone role-player, for instance- then find a group in which everyone plays like you and enjoy.

But don't piss on someone else's enjoyment of the game.