How close are cRPGs to Pen & Paper Games, really?

[John Crichton]

After reading the following article from a small panel of game developers I got to thinking about how many d20/RPG developers hang out here and wanted to get some input. The way a cRPG is made and the way a gamebook is put together seems very similiar. There is the question of story/content versus the numbers aspect of the game more commonly referenced around here as crunch vs. fluff.

http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/436/436852p1.html

Now everyone has a different playing style and it is certainly up to the GM (some would say the gaming group in general) to make a gaming experience a certain way but that is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the design itself when putting together a product. I've always found that a good mix of flavor and rules in neccessary to put out a good RPG product which is my same view of videogame RPGs.

Check out the article above and share.


P.S. I know that this could have gone in the Video Games Forum but I believe it to be a topic about RPGs that includes Video Games.

 

[diaglo]

well i'm currently playing in a 3.11ed for Workgroups campaign. so i guess i agree. current editions are just like cRPGs.

 

[d4]

thank goodness. i'd rather be playing 3e than OD&D (e.g. DOS-D&D).

 

[Aeolius]

At least they don't have to release separate core rulebooks for different platforms, or I'd still be waiting on D&D v3.5 for Mac OS X.

 

[diaglo]

At least they don't have to release separate core rulebooks for different platforms, or I'd still be waiting on D&D v3.5 for Mac OS X.

what do you call AU by Monte Cook?

 

[John Crichton]

* sigh *

My intension wasn't to have this be an OS / D&D edition parallel nor is OS or version mentioned anywhere in my post or the article. C'mon guys...

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

In a lot of cases I think CRPGs and PnP are getting closer together. Look at NWN and Temple of Elemental Evil (which just went GOLD and releases this month ) -- both are specifically designed to try and capitalize on aspects of PnP that haven't been done particularly well before (NWN with the DM, multiplayer, and user-mods; ToEE with strict D&D 3.5 rules adherence in turn-based combat).

On the other hand, both CRPGs and PnP can go places the other can't. I think the future will see products in both realms -- those that are closely tied and very similar (EQ is the first CRPG that I know of that made a jump to PnP), and those that take advantage of the aspects that can't be simulated by the other genre.

Being primarily a D&D fan, I like a close correlation between what is available in PnP and what the CRPG offers (which is why I'm salivating over ToEE) -- but I think that to expect that of every product would rapidly make one genre or the other redundant (or at least dull).

 

[Wombat]

Personally I have yet to find a single crpg that is even vaguely close in tone or tale to the pnp games I am so fond of playing.

There is little true interaction between characters; since the games are meant to be played by a single players, you have only scripted NPC interaction, and most of that is terribly superficial and rather dull. The only multiplayer game that I have participated in (barring a brief and boring experience with Ultima Online) was in NWN -- there the only way characters could communicate was in the real world, rather than in the game. Gaming, for me, is all about group dymanics and no crpg has mapped this well.

CRPGs do not do a good job with emotional content. Oh you might get frustration, even anger, along with some Three Stooges-level humour, but rarely (if ever) do you get wonder, horror, joy, misery, sadness, simple pleasure and the full range of human emotion.

Most plots I have run across have felt grossly contrived -- in NWN/SoU, for example, I am to begin as the oldest trainee of a semi-retired adventurer of unimaginable power (he throws around Bigby spells like they are going out of style in a cut-scene); though "I" have trained with him longer than the other students, I am 1st level and they are 3rd or 4th. Doesn't speak well for his training methods. Then I am to go on a long, rambling mission without a clear goal or reason -- there is no involvement of either my characther or my background; everything revolves around one damn killing spree after another.

This brings up probably my largest gripe against crpgs -- they are all about killing. Oh there will be the occassional episode in the game where you are not supposed to kill something, but this is an extreme rarity, usually meant to trip you up. In may games one cannot walk through a small town in full armour and expect any form of cooperation (most will run, calling for the militia to throw these ruffians out of town), yet in crpgs you HAVE to wear armour in town as you could be attacked at any moment just walking down the street ... in broad daylight!

The style of play is also nothing like my own, which I will admit is a considered a "quirky" style -- I don't, for example, break down the fourth wall and have "logic puzzles" based on outside reading material or physics that could not possibly work given the technology of the worlds involved. I dislike planar travel. I loathe confrontations with gods and demi-gods. Thus I also tend to dislike games that get into the "epic level" range.

So for me crpgs have come a long way, but ultimately have very little interest to me. I own two or three, but the only one that came close to interesting me was Baldur's Gate II, baring the revolting Throne of Bhaal follow-up.

Gimme pen, paper, dice, friends, and munchies over the computer games any day of the week.

 

[jasper]

Crpgs and PnP are As close as the mountains of Modor. While computers may allow mechanics to flow smoothly in the background, they never be able to cover the BattleTech Ledge.
The BattleTech Ledge comes from a twelve year old out smarting three teenage and young adult players. As standard the geeks did not want the kid to play. They give him a mech which could not damage the other two mechs. The kid is in the bottom of the valley. The other mechs are on a ledge above the valley with line of slight and range on the kid. The valley has a very sharp slope. After two or so rounds of combat which the kid took damage but the older teens were not scratched the following takes place.
Kid, “So I can’t damage the mechs with my weapons correct?
Teens, “yes” giggles follow.
Kid, “Describe the ledge to me.”
Gm, “The ledge is about five feet thick, about fifteen to twenty feet wide and extends out twenty to thirty feet over the canyon.”
Kid, “ I shoot every thing possible at the point underneath the ledge where the ledge juts out from the cliff. You did say my missile blows three foot holes in the ground.”
Teens,”??”
Gm,”??”
Kid, “ If a missile put a three foot hole in the ground it should put at least a foot hole in rock, I cut loose with everything!”

Which resulted both the teens’ mechs taking damage from the fall and avalanche. Now one of teen told me this story and was mad at the game master and kid. He got further tick off when I replied I want to play with kid.

Now I haven’t played many computer games recently due to similar structure reasons. In fact I just started playing NWN due to my game group becoming defunct. Any sites and modules for beginner player wanted. Some examples are in Curse of Azure Bonds when fighting one boss, you had to send a fighter up to smack it for damage. Even if you could take it out with range weapons. If you didn’t after killing the boss wandering monsters would hit you every two steps. Other games you had to notice that in the third house from the left in New York City on Main Street had a green door which you could not open. Later you found the key in sewer of L.A. Then you had to travel all the way back to New York to get the Grandma’s Cookie from the green door house to feed the cop in L.A.

I also dislike stupid companions. If I have to tell a villager to keep farming after the farm is exhausted every time I want to scream. (yes I also just go Age of Empires).

The problems with pen and paper.
How the game master interprets the rules.
What house rules are in effect.
Accurate description and visualization. Which computers can do well.
Bad players. Don’t know the game, want to kill everyone, their can be only one and that is my pc etc.
Too many gamers wanting to game master.
Time management problems. (Little Johnny has foot ball this quarter, Bill has is AA meeting on every second Friday)

In both actions may or may not have consequences in direct relation to the act. For example, I kill a npc watch man. How would the game master react. Am I on Greyhawk’s ten most wanted list. Or does the computer not allow me to attack the guard. Or can a kill the guard in front of Grand Marshall Dillion and nothing happens.

 

[Zappo]

There is little true interaction between characters; since the games are meant to be played by a single players, you have only scripted NPC interaction, and most of that is terribly superficial and rather dull.

Yeah, I agree. The best that CRPGs have come up with up to now is the use of extremely complex multi-option dialogue, and it doesn't get anywhere close to a good PnP experience.

However - I would suggest you to play Planescape: Torment. It has the best plot and character development of any game that I can think about, and more often than not, there is at least a way out that doesn't involve combat. Heck, I have "defeated" what could be called the "final boss" without getting off dialogue mode. I think this game comes as close to PnP as current technology can get. Its main problem is the length of the dialogues and descriptions, but they shouldn't pose a problem to a PnP player.