D&D (2024) How did I miss this about the Half races/ancestries

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And quite often failing at some point and falling into the darkness. Since the early days of D&D you could have an exception to the rule. Those very rare exceptions don't invalidate the rule. You aren't going to stop and try to discuss morality with 9,999 vampires just because 1 in 10,000 might have some good in it. You're simply going to kill that 10,000th vampire without ever knowing that it had some good.
Sure! That's how wars or even bar brawls work. Talking is usually a luxury unavailable in a conflict. I don't usually get to ask someone about their motivations when they're swinging at my face. None of that requires evil to be mandatory even for illithids. This is one of the reasons Planescape or even something like a Underdark campaign is so interesting - you get to engage with scary monstrous beings in neutral settings and get to know them outside of an initiative roll, and you might even end up allies if not friends, or at least see tragedy in being unable to do so.

Having a chat with an illithid that laments that brains are a need and not a choice, even if they are in fact evil, could be interesting.
 

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Sure I have, and I am a Boston native. But if some thieves from Canada passed through my area of Boston, invaded my home and took my stuff, the news wouldn't say "Boston native attacked" they would say "Resident falls victim to home invasion" or something like that.

But it would not be inaccurate if they said "Boston Native attacked by Canadian Thieves" in fact, I've seen plenty of headlines like it.

Well they vary but mostly, especially when they have the stereotypical band of orcs or goblins in them, it is more like a bandit headquarters or lair I would say. But that could also be thought of as a home I suppose. My point was it isn't necessary connected to some broader culture of indigenous orcs. They could just be roaming bands of raiding orcs, which they usually are in D&D because for a game that logic works

Except, the language is important here, isn't it? A headquarters makes it sound like a military group. A lair is a thing of monsters and dark things. A home is a place where people live.

And I had specifically brought up the orcs (or other people) as a group of indigenous people, which you immediately started trying to change into something else. To remove the language markers that would make the sympathy obvious and instead replace them with things appropriate to be killed.

Because a lot of people have started questioning "why are these roaming orcs always bands of raiders, and not... just nomadic people"? And sure, you can call upon game logic. But just like finding a salt-water shark in an underground lake was just "game logic" used to create an adventure, people start applying logic and reason to what they are presented. Sure, they can ignore it because the game says this crazy mystery box has no logic... but that is unsatisfying to a lot of people. Because if there is no logic, you can't solve the puzzle. You would hear hoofbeats and be confronted with horse-hooved turtles, because who cares.

I think the poster was referring to me, but I never said you can't advocate for change.

I haven’t. I simply pointed out when someone compared their actions to protesting that protest has also been used to get art censored (but in same breath I said protest is free expression and people have a right to do it)

Right, you can totally protest. Just remember that all these other times people protested for moral reasons it was terrible and harmed art and you've already seen artists harmed by this and culture has really gone too far... but you are free to protest if you really want.

It may not be poisoning the well, but it is VERY clear that you want people to stop protesting, because you think they are causing too much harm.
 

Okay, why? Why does it matter that orcs, goblins, hobgoblins, or trolls are ugly?

Tropes are mental short-hand. And don't give me the "but it is just a game" angle, because then paintings don't matter either because they are just pigments on paper.

Reinforcing "ugly=bad" is something that has had a real-world impact on our society. We have done it for so long, that there is actually a noticeable effect on people's perceptions. A pretty person is seen as more competent, more trustworthy, more moral. Studies have been done on this time and time again.

And sure, it is partially based on biology. Pretty=healthy and not diseased=good, but this is used time and time and time again. Big, ugly and mean. Big, ugly and mean. And then you run into a person who is big and "ugly"... so your brain finishes the shorthand. Obviously they are mean, or bad, or malicious.

Is this a problem we can fix? Hell no. Not even close. But it is important to recognize that it is a trope, a mental short-cut that can lead us astray, because it incentivizes us to judge someone based on their appearance. Just like there are a lot of people who when they see a beautiful blonde, they immediately think she is shallow and catty, because media has deluged us with example after example after example of shallow, catty blondes.
 

I for one believe WOTC should actively support the creature of lore,art,and mechanics for evil versions of all PC races

  1. Evil Dragonborn
  2. Evil Dwarves
  3. Evil Elves
  4. Evil Gnomes
  5. Evil Goliaths
  6. Evil Halflings
  7. Evil Humans
  8. Evil Orcs
  9. Evil Tieflings
Each with their own core tactics and different motivations. More options for the DM to use or ban and give PC different challenges and reasons to fight them.
very easy art. Long pencil thin curvy mustaches.
 



But it would not be inaccurate if they said "Boston Native attacked by Canadian Thieves" in fact, I've seen plenty of headlines like it.

It would be misleading to use that phrasing to draw a connection between the Boston native being attacked by someone from another country and colonialism. And I think resident would be a more clear terminology unless it was particularly important that this was a Boston native for some reason. But if I saw a headline "Boston native attack by thieving Canadian!" I'd feel like the paper in question was trying to manipulate me and stir up anti-Canadian sentiment.

Except, the language is important here, isn't it? A headquarters makes it sound like a military group. A lair is a thing of monsters and dark things. A home is a place where people live.

I suppose. I use the term headquarters for groups in my settings. Lair works too. Home is probably not the best label to put on a map, but in terms of function, I think these things are closer to a home or small place of residence if the orcs are living there but there isn't a broader society of orcs nearby. Outpost could work too.

And I had specifically brought up the orcs (or other people) as a group of indigenous people, which you immediately started trying to change into something else. To remove the language markers that would make the sympathy obvious and instead replace them with things appropriate to be killed.

Again though you are adding in the term indigenous there where I don't think it is always going to be the case. And I think the language marker you are using helps you draw a cleaner line to colonialism, but I don't think it matches how orcs are always appearing in these cases in D&D. So I am not changing anything, I am just challenging the presumptions baked into he phrasing you used.

Because a lot of people have started questioning "why are these roaming orcs always bands of raiders, and not... just nomadic people"? And sure, you can call upon game logic. But just like finding a salt-water shark in an underground lake was just "game logic" used to create an adventure, people start applying logic and reason to what they are presented. Sure, they can ignore it because the game says this crazy mystery box has no logic... but that is unsatisfying to a lot of people. Because if there is no logic, you can't solve the puzzle. You would hear hoofbeats and be confronted with horse-hooved turtles, because who cares.

Why describe anyone as a band of raiders then?

I don't know, I think game logic works here. Maybe you want more and that is fine. But I don't think there is anything wrong with someone stopping short of that and saying they want orcs to be roaming bands of raiders. And there is nothing super unbelievable about a band of raiders. They could be out on expedition just like the party.


Right, you can totally protest. Just remember that all these other times people protested for moral reasons it was terrible and harmed art and you've already seen artists harmed by this and culture has really gone too far... but you are free to protest if you really want.

If someone is using protest to ask for art to be taken down , don't people have a right to criticize the protest? That doesn't take away your right to protest, it just means people are going to react to it if they think it isn't grounded in something good.

It may not be poisoning the well, but it is VERY clear that you want people to stop protesting, because you think they are causing too much harm.

That is a mischaracterization of what I am saying. I want there to be a healthy discourse in the hobby around these topics and for you to be able to express your views clearly without being ostracized, called crazy or made into a pariah and I want the same for people who disagree with you....so we have a conversation about these topics. If you want to protest, you have every right. If you start protesting art you want taken down, or games you want removed, people who disagree with you will critique the protest or try to argue the case that it is misguided, but they won't (or at least shouldn't) stop you.

And I have said many times in this thread it isn't just the critics, it is the culture and atmosphere of the times. I can be critical of your position, say I think your protest is bad for art and free expression, and still believe in free expression enough that I would argue for you to be able to say all those things without anyone trying to form an online mob against you, trying to attack your character and ruin your reputation, trying to take work away from you etc. I want people to be able to have open conversations and I want there to be more charitable exchanges than we have had. What I am objecting to is the culture that feels almost like an inquisition when you step out of line
 

My point was it isn't necessary connected to some broader culture of indigenous orcs. They could just be roaming bands of raiding orcs, which they usually are in D&D because for a game that logic works
Because default starting D&D lore of almost every edition disagrees. That's the core problem.

It's not random band of violent Gruumsh worshipping raiders or mercs.

They are reverted to all being barbaric, destructive, tribal ravagers who are too stupid to farm and build.

Every edition, D&D reverts to 1975.
 

Why describe anyone as a band of raiders then?

I don't know, I think game logic works here. Maybe you want more and that is fine. But I don't think there is anything wrong with someone stopping short of that and saying they want orcs to be roaming bands of raiders. And there is nothing super unbelievable about a band of raiders. They could be out on expedition just like the party.
Actually it is.

There always conversations in the 90s and 00s that D&D orcs don't make sense. Civilization with a raiding culture still had fully organized home nations to return to after raids. Orcs were specifically written to not have civilizations. So there would never be enough orcs to fight off a noble's army after their 3rd raid. Especially if they are all muscular and stupid.

It's "How do Drow cities not collapse on themselves?" all over again.

A lot of D&D's lore is ripped for other surces in bits without the logically parts of the author's work that makes sense of it all.

D&D was original built as a nonsense game where you didn't think hard about it.

But fans said "What if D&D was somewhat serious?"

And that's where all the trouble started. D&D has been struggling with keeping its silly lore and treating it as serious.
 

Any intelligent, self-willed being has the potential for complexity, even mind flayers. If you want an enemy you can turn your moral compass off for you have things like mindless undead, constructs, oozes, etc.

Eh, Mind Flayers are hive-minded Parasites who act as semi-sentient drones for a massive evil brain. I don't think they HAVE the self-will to not be evil.

And the Brains are all supposedly connected in an even larger evil network. So, individual "good" elder brains don't really happen either.
 

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