D&D (2024) How did I miss this about the Half races/ancestries

[Bagpuss]

The point of concern here is − human culture and language.

If they have reallife cultures like we do, then they are us.

The capacity of speech is key.

If they are sewing clothes, they are us.

Are you talking about Stone Age humans or Orcs, because I can agree that your Stone Age human, intellect wise is probably capable of living in a modern world, our knowledge comes form culture and education, how much the brain has evolved since then is likely very small.

You can't say the same thing about Orcs, they are a fantasy race and could have completely different brain make-up and alien psychology.

For those that haven't read it I high recommend the 2300AD Kafer Sourcebook, for how an alien psychology might work. The Kafer's in 2300AD are an alien species that rather than adrenaline in stressful situations they have a hormone that speeds and improves their intelligence. Enough exposure to this hormone sees a permanent increase, so all their scientists, and leaders tend to come from frontline warriors. They also seek conflict to improve their race. They hit human prisoners when they don't understand instructions, not because they are being cruel, but because they believe it will make them more intelligent and able to understand.

It is entirely possible for Orcs (or any species in D&D) to not be capable what humans are capable of because they aren't necessarily built the same way because they aren't human. If your orcs an analogy for that aspect of humanity that thinks "might makes right", they don't need to full range of human cultures and capabilities of thought, they can be beyond redemption.

 

[Yaarel]

I can agree that your Stone Age human, intellect wise is probably capable of living in a modern world, our knowledge comes form culture and education, how much the brain has evolved since then is likely very small.

Yeah.

You can't say the same thing about Orcs, they are a fantasy race and could have completely different brain make-up and alien psychology.

If an other sapient species is truly "alien" from the human species, then humans wont recognize what they are doing. They would be more like dolphins and unclear whether they are sapient or not.

They wont have features of reallife human cultures, like human languages and witchdoctors and clothing and tribes and religions.

And if they are "savages", then that is reallife extremist racism from over a century ago.

If they have a human culture, they are us.

 

[Bagpuss]

If they have a human culture, they are us.

If they are us why bother having non-human species at all in RPGs.

Clearly they aren't us otherwise they would be human.

 

[Yaarel]

If they are us why bother having non-human species at all in RPGs.

Clearly they aren't us otherwise they would be human.

D&D derives from reallife folkbeliefs.

In these worldviews, the features of nature manifest in humanlike ways. They are aspects of reallife humanity. They are human psychological archetypes. They are the people who one meets during a dream.

If D&D has a hard scifi setting that more scientifically speculates what an alien sapient extraterrestrial species might be like, it wont be an "Orc".

 

[Frozen_Heart]

So if calling a group of pre-sapients a 'tribe' is insensitive, why is one of the names for a group of monkeys also a 'tribe'?

Would calling a group of pre-sapients a 'troop' be ok?

 

[Yaarel]

So if calling a group of pre-sapients a 'tribe' is insensitive, why is one of the names for a group of monkeys also a 'tribe'?

Actually, I havent heard (or made note) of referring to a group of monkeys as "tribe".

But yeah, that does come across as offensive in my ears.

Would calling a group of pre-sapients a 'troop' be ok?

The term "troop" (which is the term that I am familiar with) is fine with me.



When I think about what the difference is, the term "tribe" is absolutely a reallife human ethnicity.

A troop is just a group of soldiers. Or any kind of mobile grouping.

The terms that come to mind are folklore trooping fairies, or modern military troops, or even a group of objects.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

Actually, I havent heard (or made note) of referring to a group of monkeys as "tribe".

I hadn't either until I looked up the name for a group of monkeys. Surprised me that 'tribe' was one of the options as I'd not heard it used before.

Troop seems to make most sense, as it's the most common word used for groups of chimps, and isn't used for human cultures.

 

[Bagpuss]

D&D derives from reallife folkbeliefs.

In these worldviews, the features of nature manifest in humanlike ways. They are aspects of reallife humanity. They are human psychological archetypes. They are the people who one meets during a dream.

So not human then, just reflection, limited aspects of humanity. Archetypes are like analogies. They tend to be fixed, so not the full range of human experience like I was saying.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Is it you don't understand, or simply refuse to accept what is explained to you? Repeatedly.

I understand what the position is, but I can express how different my reaction is and even disagree with it if people label something a problem. I get that it is frustrating when people don't agree with you in a thread, but I feel like I am discussing this in good faith. I have also been very patient in this thread with posts that are borderline hostile or completely mischaracterize what I say

It's not a "reflex" to note that the racism on display is virtually word for word identical to real world racism, such as the description of orcs. There are a million ways to "highlight" elven arrogance, if that's something you think is important, other than using mixed race stand ins, particularly when this specific brand of racism is something that very real people have to deal with in the very real world on a very real daily basis.

Whether it's the direct "one drop" rules in 2e descriptions of half elves meaning that it is actually literally impossible under 2e rules to have half elves actually be able to have mixed children - the only way for a half elf to have a half elven baby in 2e would be to have children with full blooded elves. Everything else would just result in a human. Oh, yeah, that's a fantastic look.

Or it's the direct description of how half-elves are automatically misfits in 5e and cannot ever be just accepted. Again, not a great look.

Except plenty of people affected but this have been disagreeing with one another on whether the half elves are a good or a bad thing, if half is itself a problem, etc. I don't think it is as simple as saying well "not a great look". We have all been reading that text and been having very different responses to it. I don't think the solution is to set the bar so low for this stuff you can't even have a hint of bigotry in the setting between two fiction races. Again, I think a lot of this is the lens people are using.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

A potential point of conflict to give pre-sapients an incentive to be the 'generic bad guy' would be making their primary prey be humans and other sapients. They wouldn't actually be evil, any more than a lion is evil because it hunts zebra.

But a group of smart, strong, and fast creatures which raid humans to take and eat people would be a clear point of conflict beyond 'this group evil'.