D&D (2024) How did I miss this about the Half races/ancestries

[MGibster]

It's quite common to reclaim things that are used as derogatory terms, but certainly not universal. My family takes a great deal of pride in being mixed, so we'll happily call ourselves stuff like "mutts" and "mongrels" because we pretty much dare anyone to try and treat it like a bad thing. Would never use that term at someone else though unless they expressed a similar preference, at which point we'd be high-fiving about it. Language usage is very, very individual.

I don't think people referring to themselves as half-this and half-that is an example of reclaiming a word. Referring to people as mongrels is an insult and generally speaking people didn't self-identify as mongrels whereas people have self-identified as half-this and half-that including people in this very thread. If you can demonstrate that people in the past used half-this and half-that in a similar manner they used mongrel I could accept the reclaimation theory. Right now it just looks like the phrase is going out of fashion much the same way Negro or Oriental has fallen out of common use.

 

[MGibster]

New words don't help if they are trying to convey the same concepts, kind of shown by people getting upset over replacing race with species. And often people just go on to start taking offence at the new words because the sentiment is the same.

It's called the euphemism treadmill and I'm afraid it's unavoidable. When you've got a living culture the language is simply going to change with the times.

 

[Guest 85555]

It's called the euphemism treadmill and I'm afraid it's unavoidable. When you've got a living culture the language is simply going to change with the times.

It isn’t a total upward trend. In the 80s and 90s political correctness became a trend (so much do that Roger Ebert called if the fascism of our time——paraphrasing). But it became untenable and didn’t reflect his most people talked so there was a reverse trend (not a trend towards increased racism or cruelty but a trend away from constantly purifying the language). We seem to be in another phase of purifying the language.

 

[Guest 85555]

I agree. Conflating a half heritage with that word is a mega-strawman.

The N Word is maybe the biggest one in the English language (at least in America). It is also a word I think has earned the taboo that it has. At a certain point it does feel like words are imbued with a lot of power and meaning, and can almost take on a religious like level of taboo. But I do think there is finite space for that. If you assign the same power that the N word has, to 200 other words, the N word does lose its meaning. And it is always useful to understand terms have different power in different cultures

I have a friend who has adopted three mixed-race boys after fostering them. I recently had a conversation about this issue since he's also a gamer, and he told me the "half" status is important to all of them and something they're proud of. One of them is the kid who schooled me about Tanis half-elven since I didn't really know that much about the character.

I think that most of the attempts to talk about "half" as a description are well intended, but we are going pretty far from the experiences of people who are living with it.

This my honest view too. I am sure there are individuals who take issue, but most of the arguments for it seem highly esoteric and academic, not something you encounter when you are dealing with people out in the world. Again any word can be used in a bad way. If someone calls you half something in a sneering way, or in a way that suggests you are 'only half', of course that is a bad thing. But there are much more optimistic and positive takes on it, and sometimes the way this conversation gets handled it almost sounds like the issue isn't about the word but about people who are mixed (and I am not saying anyone here is doing that, but I have definitely seen more hostility towards interracial dating and racial mixing in recent years than I did say ten or twenty years ago, and the scope of viewpoints it comes from is broader, sometimes rooted in this kind of concern about language and power dynamics)

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

I think everyone here has a different issue which is part of the problem. As everyone has a different talking point, there is no actual solution.

My first issue is that two playable species which have always had their own entries, and are both very popular, are no longer getting their own entries. Instead players are being told to reflavour one of their parent species. The result being:

DM: So what are you playing?
Player: Half-Elf
DM: Ok so what race are you really playing?

My second issue is Humans and Half Elves being mechanically dull and lacking any identity on the tabletop. 5e humans are literally a bundle of nothingness, and the tabletop would lose nothing if they got deleted. 1DnD humans have fixed that and given them a mechanical identity with their ability to gain inspiration. To me, half-elves should be reworked to actually gain a mechanical identity, rather than a minor feature which basically never comes up and some skills.

And my last issue is the names. Half-elf and half-orc as names has ensured that both species have never gone and developed their own identity beyond 'what they're not'. The book entries literally spend ages saying about what the half-elf isn't, and with barely a mention of what the half-elf is. Even irl hybrids aren't called 'half-something', as they're given their own unique names. Eberron fixed this by calling half-elves 'Khoravar', and has given them their own cultures and history.

So basically what I'd like to see is:

Half-Elves and Half-Orcs given their own unique names and cultures lorewise, and given their own mechanics on the tabletop. But rework those mechanics to be actually unique and interesting like has been done with the 1DnD human.

And then people wanting to play the child of a human and an elf/orc can either use the guidance given in the playtest (pick one of the parent species and reflavour), or they can use the mechanics for these two species.

And I feel that a Mixed Origin subsystem that lets people choose aspects from between two parents would make all mixed origin/hybrid folk less dull, because not all mixed origin/hybrid folk will be exactly the same.

Want an in-game justification? Such folk weren't created by the gods like dwarves and elves were and are less hard-coded. Rather they are a delightful amalgamation with even more variation and diversity provided by the system itself. Whether a happy surprise, or purposefully intended due to the existence of magical interfolk fertility so that it could delight the Powers That Be with what evolves from their creations.

I think it would be better that the "half-elf" nor be directly called a Khoravar in the 2024 PH because there is nothing in the lore that suggests they would have spread throughout the cosmos to Krynn and FR and anyone's home world (not everyone's home game buys into Spelljammer or multiversal theory.) Rather, I think that showcasing the options of a elf/human hybrid would be appropriate as an example of a use of the system.

Hmmm... Is hybrid a charged term? The Simic Hybrid exists now because of MTG. If we can just get past the pseudo-sci-fi perspective of the word "Species" that has been around since the middle ages (late 14th century), and Hybrid (late 17th century) we can use both in the 2024 rules.

It could be called the "Hybrid Species" system.

Elf/Human Hybrid example
1. Choose one of your parent's Species (Elf or Human) to provide the the Primary (non-modular) abilities of your hybrid character.
2. Select X Secondary abilities from among the modular Secondary abilities of both parents' species.
3. Select X Tertiary abilities from among the modular Tertiary abilities of both parents' species
4. Select the appearance of your hybrid using any variation of physical qualities between your two parents' species, ensuring that they have any physical characteristics necessary for the use of any physical abilities that require it (wings for flight, for example.)
5. Talk to your DM about the cultures available in the campaign, and consider what species or culture your character might identify as. Some call themselves "half-elves," reclaiming once-insensitive slurs for themselves. However in Eberron, Elf/Human hybrids have become so many, and have developed their own cultural identity, that many have adopted the cultural identity of "Khoravar," considering themselves true children of the continent of Khorvaire.

 

[Charlaquin]

If they want players to have the option to have any mixed heritage we want, then they need to gives us mechanical rules to mix two races together instead of copping out and just saying pretend you are mixed.

Need is an interesting word. They don’t need to do anything. What it seems like they are going to do is include a sidebar that says characters of mixed heritage can choose the mechanics of either parent’s species and can describe their appearance as any combination they like.

We do not need WotC to tell us that we can use our imagination.

It’s important to consider who “we” is. You and I? No, we certainly don’t need WotC’s permission to do this. However, Jeremy Crawford has talked quite a bit about how early in 5e they didn’t make a conscious effort to explicitly call out when players were free to describe something themselves, and that led to a lot of new players thinking they had to follow the descriptions in the book, rather than using them as examples. Once they realized this was an issue, they started being much more intentional about giving players explicit permission to describe things however they want to. So, unless he’s just lying about that, apparently there is a significant number of D&D players who feel they do need WotC to give them permission to do these things.

 

[DEFCON 1]

So, yeah. I'm bowing out. There's not much point in this conversation anymore. We are simply never going to agree here.

But here's the good thing-- WotC is going to do whatever it is they want to do REGARDLESS of whatever some people will complain about or thinking things are going too far. And right now, if things continue as they seem to be... you are on the same side as WotC history. You are probably going to get your wish, even if others here on the boards still don't get your analogies or care about understanding your point of view. So in that regard, you can go home happy.

 

[Remathilis]

It could be called the "Hybrid Species" system.

Elf/Human Hybrid example
1. Choose one of your parent's Species (Elf or Human) to provide the the Primary (non-modular) abilities of your hybrid character.
2. Select X Secondary abilities from among the modular Secondary abilities of both parents' species.
3. Select X Tertiary abilities from among the modular Tertiary abilities of both parents' species
4. Select the appearance of your hybrid using any variation of physical qualities between your two parents' species, ensuring that they have any physical characteristics necessary for the use of any physical abilities that require it (wings for flight, for example.)
5. Talk to your DM about the cultures available in the campaign, and consider what species or culture your character might identify as. Some call themselves "half-elves," reclaiming once-insensitive slurs for themselves. However in Eberron, Elf/Human hybrids have become so many, and have developed their own cultural identity, that many have adopted the cultural identity of "Khoravar," considering themselves true children of the continent of Khorvaire.

It's not a bad system per se. But it's going to require a hefty chunk of real estate to implement. Every species in the game will have to be broken down into primary/secondary/tertiary lists. Weight will have to be given to each ability so determine what is considered which type. You would have to do this for all nine PHB species, and realistically for the 30 more in MotM and possibly the dozens more in various supplements, some of which haven't been updated to the new format yet. Then you'd have to look for the broken combos and superior options that clamp down on them. (For example, a hybrid changeling might only be able to shapechange x times per day rather than at will).

Is all that doable? Absolutely. But to be done right, it's going to cost a lot of R&D, playtest and space in the book. I don't think that is feasible for the 24 PHB. That would be awesome in a 25 supplement book though. Markov's Guide to Genetics or something. I just don't want to see such a system rushed out the door in order to have a PHB half-elf replacement. There are too many variables that can break when combining things that weren't designed to be interchangeable.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

It's not a bad system per se. But it's going to require a hefty chunk of real estate to implement. Every species in the game will have to be broken down into primary/secondary/tertiary lists. Weight will have to be given to each ability so determine what is considered which type. You would have to do this for all nine PHB species, and realistically for the 30 more in MotM and possibly the dozens more in various supplements, some of which haven't been updated to the new format yet. Then you'd have to look for the broken combos and superior options that clamp down on them. (For example, a hybrid changeling might only be able to shapechange x times per day rather than at will).

Is all that doable? Absolutely. But to be done right, it's going to cost a lot of R&D, playtest and space in the book. I don't think that is feasible for the 24 PHB. That would be awesome in a 25 supplement book though. Markov's Guide to Genetics or something. I just don't want to see such a system rushed out the door in order to have a PHB half-elf replacement. There are too many variables that can break when combining things that weren't designed to be interchangeable.

Something like that is what I'd like, but yeah it's not backwards compatible and would need a lot of work. Every species from prior to the new PHB would be outdated.

 

[MGibster]

Need is an interesting word. They don’t need to do anything. What it seems like they are going to do is include a sidebar that says characters of mixed heritage can choose the mechanics of either parent’s species and can describe their appearance as any combination they like.

It’s important to consider who “we” is. You and I? No, we certainly don’t need WotC’s permission to do this. However, Jeremy Crawford has talked quite a bit about how early in 5e they didn’t make a conscious effort to explicitly call out when players were free to describe something themselves, and that led to a lot of new players thinking they had to follow the descriptions in the book, rather than using them as examples. Once they realized this was an issue, they started being much more intentional about giving players explicit permission to describe things however they want to. So, unless he’s just lying about that, apparently there is a significant number of D&D players who feel they do need WotC to give them permission to do these things.

I think a lot of us who have been gaming for a while forget what it's like for people who are relatively new. Even as an experienced gamer, when I first started running Call of Cthulhu I quickly noticed a problem with investigations grinding to a halt because the players had bad luck with their rolls and I didn't know what to do about it. A long time player came along and said, "Oh, that's not a problem. Just give them whatever clue they need to progress the plot regardless of what they roll." At the time, this wasn't what the book told me to do though that's basically what 7th edition suggests.