How do do Paragon Tier Adventuring?

My players have just concluded heroic tier in Eberron. They went from 1st level adventurer/fugitives who stumbled on a world-class conspiracy to 10th level heroes who just topelled the corrupt priest commanding the temporal power of the Church of the Silver Flame.

I think I did heroic tier "right", they've just stepped up to paragon tier with an adventure that put them on a "national" stage. That's the way tier system is meant to be right?

So, now I need some help understanding what to do with Paragon Tier.

I can tell that when they enter Epic Tier that they achieve demi-god status and start to take on the gods themselves (or in this case, one of the Rakshasa Rajas)

So, paragon tier?
 

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The DMG2 is a fairly good reference on running Paragon Tier adventures.

Basically, it's large scale...country and continent-wide scale adventures. The planes start to take more of a role (especially travelling to them). You start fighting the more powerful creatures...giants, drow, illithids, etc.
 

Sounds like a great campaign! We always have a tough time pulling together a coherent story for a whole tier. Let us know how the paragon tier goes.
 

One place to start is from the Eberron Campaign Guide. Check out the NPCs that are in the paragon tier and consider a plot where they are the main villains. I think the Lord of Blades is low epic, he would work as a 'final boss' of paragon.

To tie in to that: The Mournlands. It's time for them to solve why the Mournlands happened, and to stop the being behind it. Maybe the Lord of Blades is a good guy on the same hunt as the PCs, finding the guy who did it. Or he is the one. Or it's unrelated. Also, war breaking out again would be pretty cool.

As far just making paragon tier seem 'different' other than higher level monsters and benefits on action points for the PC's, well, I'd consider that they have followers and the PCs send them on quests, diplomatic journeys, etc, or they command a squad if its war time.

They have their own Airship (if they don't have that already!) and generally are pretty much awesome. Kings and Queens regularly request them in their courts for advice, diplomacy, or anything.
 

Some references that I could suggest are:

1 - Lord of the Rings.

2 - In Paragon Tier, in my opinion, characters have usually less chance to die. So they should fight for others, instead of themselves. The bad guys can attack/hurt/kill innocent bystanders in the process..
Its entirely possible that a bad guy can escape with the phrase: "are you going to start this fight here? How many would be killed?"

3 - Star Trek is great, giving many examples. Usually Captain Picard could just disintegrate the bad guys, but either "Prime Directive forbids" or " its just not the right thing to do".

4 - Players as examples of their archetypes, not just as a collection of skills and feats, but also as the way they behave.
If the players just go crazy with power, let them see what their examples are doing to their "followers": thos guys could also go crazy andstart doing wrong things, thinking they would please the PCs.

Just my 2 cents. :cool:
 

Do you all mind if I just throw out some story threads/ideas? Maybe you can help me make them suitably paragon and wrap up in a suitable epic tier showdown.

Here's where the story is ultimately headed:
The paragon tier bad buy is a rakshasa, Shakul, a claw of khyber who serves the Shadow in the Flame, and is trying to free him.

The party has been gathering artifacts of a legendary hero, the nemesis of the main bad guy, because he is needed to defeat Shakul. They need the artifacts before they can attempt to resurrect him, and the plane of the dead is remote.

Shakul has been sowing the seeds of a breakout of a new war. Once the five nations are fighting, he has an invasion army preparing to march through the Eldeen Reaches to seize Flamekeep.


So some things they could do:
They've got to go into the mournlands to get the final artifact. I suspect I'll have to do that soon, or let them attempt it, since the players are very focused on getting the artifacts.

War between the five nations breaks out, or potentially breaks out. They have to try and stop it from happening and rally the nations against the bad guy's army.

The Anti-keeper escapes and they need to track her down.

Doluur is remote and they need to find a way to manipulate the planes and bring Doluur coterminous so they can raise the hero.

Hmmm... the mournlands idea...something about...how about the mournlands was a stalling tactic by the main bad guy, something involving the prophesy, he needed the war to stop for a little, then be restarted in time for his invasion. Whatever he did to make the mournlands happen wrecked the orbit of the planes, and they discover this in the course of trying to bring Doluur coterminous, but pressing needs mean they can't do anything about it right away. Epic tier could involve fixing the damage to the Planes.


The thing is, I don't see enough there for a whole TIER?
 

Do you all mind if I just throw out some story threads/ideas? Maybe you can help me make them suitably paragon and wrap up in a suitable epic tier showdown.

Here's where the story is ultimately headed:
The paragon tier bad buy is a rakshasa, Shakul, a claw of khyber who serves the Shadow in the Flame, and is trying to free him.

The party has been gathering artifacts of a legendary hero, the nemesis of the main bad guy, because he is needed to defeat Shakul. They need the artifacts before they can attempt to resurrect him, and the plane of the dead is remote.

Shakul has been sowing the seeds of a breakout of a new war. Once the five nations are fighting, he has an invasion army preparing to march through the Eldeen Reaches to seize Flamekeep.
All very Paragon-apropriate.

The funny thing about 4e is that it's been carefully tuned to play like past editions did in the narrow 'sweet spot' (levels 4-7 in AD&D, levels 3-10 in 3.x), at all levels. That's great, it means the game is fun, tactically engaging, and balanced at all levels. Amazing. It also means that nothing about the game feels that different at Heroic, Paragon, and Epic. You're still generally hitting/succeeding if your roll in the double digits, you're still getting hit, you're still burning through surges - the numbers are just all bigger. 4e runs the risk of turning into 'coin toss dungeon.'

To make Paragon /feel/ like Paragon, you have to do exactly what you have in mind: expand the scope and sweep of the campaign.

The details of the encounters and adventuring days that take them through Paragon mostly have to reflect that expanded scope, but that's largely a matter of where they are, what the backdrops are like, and how they are tied together.

From your experience running Heroic, and your synopsis above, it sounds to me like you'll be fine.


The thing is, I don't see enough there for a whole TIER?
It doesn't need to be. There's no requirement that a story arc take you through an entire tier. Part of the expanded scope of the Paragon portion of your campaign could be that the players have more than one major threat (plot line) to deal with.
 

Paragon tier should put the players in the driver's seat. They should be lords and masters themselves, and be seeking their own land, title, and poilitical power- OR, whatever other agenda they have.

To really make it paragon tier, you should make sure each PC has a big, major agenda. Talk to them about what they want their pcs to achieve, and emphasise that 'beat the bad guys' is not what you're after.

From this, you should have a set of plotlines you can rely on as well as your own plots. On top of whatever the villain wants, you have what the PCs want. They might go to a city to stop the villain's plot, but they might also go because, for instance, one of the pcs is a priest that is trying to cause a reformation of the church of the silver flame.

It's really down to the pcs and what they're after. Even if players are hestiant to have these kidns of agendas, getting them into this kind of play is what paragon tier is about.

So what kind of PCs are we talking about here?

Do you all mind if I just throw out some story threads/ideas? Maybe you can help me make them suitably paragon and wrap up in a suitable epic tier showdown.
More info is always good on threads like this, if you're happy to get feedback.

Here's where the story is ultimately headed:
The paragon tier bad buy is a rakshasa, Shakul, a claw of khyber who serves the Shadow in the Flame, and is trying to free him.
I'll talk about his plan below.

The party has been gathering artifacts of a legendary hero, the nemesis of the main bad guy, because he is needed to defeat Shakul. They need the artifacts before they can attempt to resurrect him, and the plane of the dead is remote.
No offence but I think this is a really poor idea.

It's a classic example of a plot that might work in a story but does not work well in a game. It's also a classic example of the kind of plotline many people don't see a problem with because the damage done is often intangible.

The fate of the world should rely on the pcs, not some NPC you made up. They're the heroes and should be the focus of the story, not him. An artifact hunt might have been a good plotline, but contrary to what some people will tell you, it's not a good idea to make the plot about npcs. You need the players to be more proactive, not less, if you really want paragon tier to be paragon tier.

It's also very difficult to tell when an idea like this is going wrong. Players might seem fine with the idea- they can use all the help they can get, and it's only logical to use such an asset- but it makes the game less about them, and relegates them to a secondary position. I'd challenge you to really re-think this entire plot, put aside your attachment to it, and consider what you really want the game to be about.

It should be about the PCs. They're the heroes. They're who the game is about. Not only should it be about them, but it should be about them doing thigns their way.

I would argue that even if they resurect this guy, he should be sidelined almost completly. If anything i'd say that he should be made into a deliberate support character- like a smith destined to craft the weapons they use. If he's an ancient hero, then his role is to train them, and the way he died means he cannot take a direct role in the battle (and may indeed simply be some kind of spirit of visitation).

I cannot stress strongly enough how bas an idea it is to make the PCs second banana to some ancient hero dude. You might be aiming for king arthur but you're going to end up with elminster.

Shakul has been sowing the seeds of a breakout of a new war. Once the five nations are fighting, he has an invasion army preparing to march through the Eldeen Reaches to seize Flamekeep.
A good rule of thumb here would be one quest per nation. In each nation, he has a unique servant who has a unique plot to drive the nation to war. Finding and defusing each plot should give variety and have a bit of a 'grand tour' angle.

Add to this, the formation of his army. Certainly, give him a strong core to march out with 'on the day'- but he should also be seeking allies, and the PCs should work to prevent this. This could be as simple as taking out his allies, or as complex as trying to turn them to the heroe's side, despite their wierd and inhuman viewpoints and such.

Hmmm... the mournlands idea...
I have an alternative suggestion for the mournlands and the plane they need to bring into alignment, and the hero guy.

As noted above, I think the hero guy is a mistake to bring into the game. I think a better bet would be for him to be serving in a support and advistory role. So how about this as an alternative, using the mournland.

The mourning was caused by the vaillain, who created a dead spell of death to destroy his nemesis, the hero.

They created a condiuit to the plane of the dead, and shifted the plane, in order to ensure that the hero was slain and unable to return. Of course, doing this resulted in a huge blowback of necrotic energy, that ended up creating the mournland- this can be the case even if their battle took place nowhere near cyre or at a different time. After all, we're talking about hugely powerful magics. It's also possible some idiot in cyre realised what had happened an attempted to replicate the spell, causing the 'spillover' that created the mournland. Either way, the result is the same.

Now the heroes can quest for the final artifact pretty soon, and once they do, it's about trying to move that plane back into alignement. As they work on this, they start to learn about the instability of the planes, and at the end of this process, possibly while comunicating with the dead hero they discover the truth- that shifting the plane and resurecting the hero will cause the mournlands to expand and fluctuate, at a dramatic rate.

With the mournland linked to this plane, any attempts to move the plane will cause wild fluctuations in it's borders, and that will cause terrible damage to the world.

The hero themself should refuse to return because of this. They're linked to this curse and the mournland, and can't in good conscience allow the zone to expand. Later on (in epic) the pcs could repair the damage, but right now, it would be madness to meddle in such forces.

So instead, the hero offers to train the pcs, teach them what they know about their foe and his servants, and generally act in a support role. However, they would also emphasise the new status quo of the paragon tier. You can literally have the hero challenge the pcs and tell them that it's up to them now- that their decisions and choices and ambitious will shape the world, and that they have to take responsibility for that.

The thing is, I don't see enough there for a whole TIER?
There wil be plenty of content if you work with the players, and move them into the driver's seat.
 

The fate of the world should rely on the pcs, not some NPC you made up. They're the heroes and should be the focus of the story, not him. An artifact hunt might have been a good plotline, but contrary to what some people will tell you, it's not a good idea to make the plot about npcs. You need the players to be more proactive, not less, if you really want paragon tier to be paragon tier.

This is exactly what I thought when I read that idea for a plot outline. If I were to adopt something like that, I would mix it up. Some ideas include:

Have the NPC they resurrect be not who they think (either a bad guy, or someone who was once a hero in his prime but no longer able/willing to fight).

Have the NPC seem invincible and ready to take on the bad guy, but get easily killed (if done right, this would be a great "oh crap" moment for the players as they realize this hero wasn't enough and have to figure out how to kill the bad guy themselves).

Or, work in an event where once the characters gather the artifacts, they realize the hero was more of an ideal, that the players now embody, so that they "resurrect" themselves into something able to beat the bad guy.

All those ideas go off of what Catastrophic put so well...the players should be the center of the story.
 

Your replies hit on a couple of my concerns when I outlined the campaign. I agree that PC's should be the focus, and planned to keep the ancient hero from overshadowing them.

The campaign has a brief 10,000 year old backstory: hero and villain opposed, some arcane accident linked their souls, now neither one can be completely defeated unless both are, and the hero's soul is "stuck" in a strange limbo. Also, the hero failed and was "killed" by the bad guy. If he was unable to succeed then, nothing has changed for him... So the hero to be raised is unable to be the focus.
I had thought he might be a good target to answer questions via divination, and the awesome paragon tier conclusion was meant to be completing the resurrection ritual, making the villain vulnerable to true death. It's not my intent that the old hero be able to do more than mentor.

The mournlands ideas are resonating , and I need to percolate . Those suggestions have given ideas to tie the story into epic tier.

I really want to avoid adventures on the same "scale" as heroic tier. As [MENTION=8900]Tony[/MENTION]-Vargas pointed out, a paragon dungeon crawl feels like a heroic crawl, but with nominally higher stakes.

One of the themes I want to explore is the "burden of leadership", which is a variation on "great power-great responsibility". So I want them to be subject to the demand of statecraft, if not as rulers, then as ambassadors, at least.

[MENTION=81381]catastrophic[/MENTION] regarding what type of PC's we've got: Here's a brief summary

Lady Guay: A powerful, formerly epic-level, succubus stripped of her powers by a dark ritual made to summon fiends in the faustian manner, then steal the power and transfer to to the summoner. Her true identity has been a secret until the conclusion of the heroic tier. She's been focused on finding and eliminating the corruption within the Church out of revenge, as well as a means to regain her power. At best, unaligned with semi-secret evil tendencies

Adriel Argentus - loyal paladin of the Silver Flame, duped by Lady Guay in swearing to protect her. As a result, powerful people within the Church accused Adriel of Heresy in order to protect their dark secrets. Adriel and Lady Guay have been fugitives from the beginning of the campaign, collecting evidence and gathering artifacts to save the world. The new High Cardinal of the Church following the exposure and defeat of High Cardinal Krozen as head of sinister and corrupt cabal. May become an NPC due to player RL circumstances

Monty - The classic Big Guy, a half-giant champion gladiator come to Khorvaire in order to win fortune and glory. Hillariously gets tangled up with Lady Guay and Adriel, and manages to suck in a harmless shopkeeper, who turns out to be:

Erdrick d'Cannith - scion of House cannoth, has completed his agenda, is leaving the party to be replaced by another character, at the player's choice

Jonathan d'Tharashk - a priest of the Silver Flame sent directly by the Flamekeeper to assist Adriel and learn the truth of accusations. Was murdered in mid-heroic and replaced, to set up an awesome classic doppelganger-style betrayal. Was saved Gandalf-style by Eberron itself to become an epic-level power and returned to the party 20 years younger wielding new powers
 
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