How do Psions compare to arcane casters?

[Felon]

I've heard players in some campaigns over the years equivocate the 3e psion with the wizard, usually as part of an attempt to assuage a DM's reservations about allowing them into a campaign.

So I'm asking those of you familiar with the psionics rules and have experienced psions in play, how much water does this rationale hold? Even if the psion is 90% similar to a sorcerer or wizard, does that 10% difference entail any notable potential problems? Does a psion possess damage-dealing capabilities on par with an arcane caster? Does the psion have all the assets of an arcanist in addition to abilities like healing? I want to hear both the good and the bad.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

One could say that arcane spellcasters have a very predictable power curve. You can look at such a PC and see what spells they have and how often they can cast them...and at what power level they can do so factoring in metamagic.

In contrast, with the right powers and wise use of them, a psion can out-flexible arcane casters all day long- many of their powers essentially have Meta-abilities built in. OTOH, they also have the option of just going nuclear in a single encounter, burning everything they have, and being virtually powerless the rest of the day.

 

[reanjr]

OTOH, they also have the option of just going nuclear in a single encounter, burning everything they have, and being virtually powerless the rest of the day.

Which makes them somewhat inappropriate for campaigns where there is usually only one encounter between rests.

 

[Felon]

One could say that arcane spellcasters have a very predictable power curve. You can look at such a PC and see what spells they have and how often they can cast them...and at what power level they can do so factoring in metamagic.

In contrast, with the right powers and wise use of them, a psion can out-flexible arcane casters all day long- many of their powers essentially have Meta-abilities built in.

Can we have some elaboration here? Don't psions need to rest to regain power?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Yes they do.

But a traditional spellcasters' spells are "digital"- they are discrete packages of power that can be unleashed one, maybe 2 at a time, with set effects. Their power is increased with metamagic effects and class levels.

Psions powers are "analog"- many of their powers can be increased by simply dumping more points into them, and then there are certain metapsionic effects that can improve him.

OTOH, while a Mage's Lightning Bolt, for example, increases its HD of damage as the PC increases his spellcasting power while still using the same 3rd level spell slot (an effect some call "autoscaling"), the Psion must burn more power points to make his powers more effective- they don't autoscale, and IME, autoscaling is a significant balancing factor.

 

[Spatula]

Psions are more akin to sorcerers than wizards. Their capabilities largely depend on their primary discipline (each discipline has a list of powers that only the specialists can access, although such powers can be learned by others through feats). A kineticist has access to all of the energy powers (the psionic equivalents of fireball, etc.) which is what the debates generally center around.

Contentious issue #1: Psions can effectively use their highest-level powers more times per day than a sorcerer or wizard, at the expense of being able to do much of anything afterwards. This can make them more effective than arcane casters if they are allowed to 'blow their wad' and then retreat to rest and regain their power points.

Contentious issue #2: The psionic energy powers all come with Energy Substitution built-in at no extra cost. A psion with the energy ball power can choose when he uses it to have it deal fire, cold, electricity, or sonic damage. Additionally, each energy type has different side effects (fire & cold get +1 damage per die, cold uses a fort save instead of reflex and thus negates evasion, electricity increases the save DC, sonic does less damage but has obvious advantanges vs objects or most planar creatures).

Contentious issue #3: Many powers (including all of the aforemented energy ones) come with Heighten Spell built-in as well. As you spend more power points, not only do you increase the strength of the power (more damage, duration, etc.), but the DC goes up as well.

Contentious issue #4: Some of the powers in the XPH are hotly debated as to whether or not they're overpowered. Energy missile foremost among them.

Contentious issue #5: While they are close in nature to sorcerers, psions can make use of the psionic version of Quicken Spell (whereas sorcerers cannot).

Aside from that, there are some notable differences between psions and arcane casters. Psionic powers are very selfish, in that they are good for enhancing the psion but not very useful to the rest of the party. There's a lot of powers that are the rough equivalent of spells with range Touch, except that the psionic versions are range Personal. Psions don't use material components, and so powers that would normally require them instead have an XP cost. Also, because of the psionic focus mechanic, a high-level psion can't stack different metamagic effects onto a single power (however, since many powers have built-in metamagic effects, this isn't a huge blow).

 

[Nightfall]

*figures the only thing he'll add to this debate is this* It also helps if you have a Psionic campaign only as it tends to "highlight" the powers of a psionic character (especially a psion), over that of "arcane" or "divine" magics.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Superb list, Spatula.

The biggie is the number of encounters per day. Imagine a 10th level Sorceror with infinite Metamagic feats who can cast ~10 5th level spells per day and nothing else. That is not necessarily overpowered or underpowered, but it is the startling difference between a Psion and the Wizard that the DM should be prepared for.

 

[Thanee]

They are definitely to be labeled as 'problematic'.

While it's certainly possible to have a campaign with psionics in it, where the classes are more or less balanced (like the level of balance the PHB sets), it *requires* the DM to take special steps towards this, whereas normally this is not the case (or not nearly to the same extent).

The biggest problem with the Psion class, which I consider the most unbalanced base class printed by WotC to date, is that they possess pretty much all the advantages of Sorcerers with (pretty much) none of the disadvantages (they are modelled after the Wizard, but still get full (and much more flexible) spontaneous casting).

And Psions have powers to gain extra actions, which is a huge design flaw in the psionics system (something that got removed (except for some weird creatures) specifically in the transition from 3.0 to 3.5, because it was too powerful).

Psions do have some psionics-specific disadvantages as well (a big point is the lack of party-friendly powers, and the general amount of available powers, although there are certainly more than enough out there by now with all the additions available (if you include 3rd-party products)), but they simply are not enough to balance their huge advantages.

Some people say, that Psions have the 'disadvantage' of being able to squeeze out and thus expend their PP quickly... now, I don't know... how can this be a disadvantage? Being able to generate more effect in shorter time is bad? That's kinda like saying a 9th-level spell is worse than a 1st-level spell, since it costs more (effectively) to cast it.

If you cannot restrain yourself, that's your fault, not the one of the class.

It's a big problem, though, if you can manifest so much in rapid succession, because that is what leads to the problem mentioned in the beginning, that Psions can only ever be remotely balanced when the DM *forces* the PCs through a plethora of encounters per day.

Magic has this same phenomenon at higher levels, but it's much more tame (and thus much better balanced).

Another point is, that the fluff to mechanics transition is questionable at best. Psions are the best nukers in the game. At least for me, that isn't quite the fluff I would expect from psionics. And all things considered, they are still much too similar to the arcane casters. Most of their powers are just the same or slightly altered versions of existing spells (often better, sometimes worse). There are a few unique things, but too little to make it worth bothering to add psionics to a campaign (and suffer from the campaign-altering effects, psionics inevitably carry with them) IMHO.

If you really like the psionics from a flavor point of view (or totally hate the 'vancian magic', or have munchkinny tendencies ), it might be worth a look, otherwise I don't think so.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Ferrix]

Another point is, that the fluff to mechanics transition is questionable at best. Psions are the best nukers in the game. At least for me, that isn't quite the fluff I would expect from psionics. And all things considered, they are still much too similar to the arcane casters. Most of their powers are just the same or slightly altered versions of existing spells (often better, sometimes worse). There are a few unique things, but too little to make it worth bothering to add psionics to a campaign (and suffer from the campaign-altering effects, psionics inevitably carry with them) IMHO.

If you really like the psionics from a flavor point of view (or totally hate the 'vancian magic', or have munchkinny tendencies ), it might be worth a look, otherwise I don't think so.

Bye
Thanee

Depends upon how you view psionics. If you take an Akira angle to psionics, well it makes a lot of sense. Although this would really be the only gripe I have with psionics, the other complaints I guess are dependent upon what you like as the balance point.

I find the psion generally balanced to the wizard, more powerful and effective than a sorcerer although the sorcerer is severely lacking, and fits fine amongst a party, but does not always fill the role of a wizard since their utility management is a bit less without very careful power choice.