How do we get from here to there?

[ZombieRoboNinja]

Thanks for the cogent analysis. I think the fix is going to involve both a specialty to get duelist damage up to par (or else provide a useful rider), and some modification to tumble and/or shift.

 

[slobo777]

FYI, in my tests I upped all HPs (except for minions) dramatically. I wanted them to be HP bags as I wanted to get a large sample of damage/character without having to run an inordinate number of new combats. I basically used templates of the monsters in the bestiary and scaled up their HPs and used all of the other main stats. Only in the "Boss Fight (3)" did I create my own creature. I basically made a 120 HP Hill Giant with Reach (to attempt to leverage Tumble a bit for kiting with Ray of Frost and to get back into melee when knocked back without provoking an AoO), a knockback on a hit, an 18 AC (buffed to 20 by an Ogre Shaman - modeled after a Dark Priest), modeled generally after the Ogre.

This will go a long way to negating your use of "net damage" for stats.

Overall though, from the amount of detail and thought you've obviously put into this, I'm coming round to the idea that you have found a specific PC build choice balance problem with the duelist.

I'm also finding the descriptions of what you have considered interesting, as I am looking at similar approach to playtesting, but going my own route and automating them (with the payoff being I will have a framework to assess other mechanics and game systems, or maybe my own custom tweaks to 5E). I'm a long, long way from running anything with the sophistication of your tests (so far I am still working on adding multiple characters, and can only support very simplified character and monster models - no choices for CS dice for instance), but seeing what you considered and used gives me pointers where I should be taking it. So, many thanks for explaining those details!

 

[Manbearcat]

Thanks for the cogent analysis. I think the fix is going to involve both a specialty to get duelist damage up to par (or else provide a useful rider), and some modification to tumble and/or shift.

This will go a long way to negating your use of "net damage" for stats.

Overall though, from the amount of detail and thought you've obviously put into this, I'm coming round to the idea that you have found a specific PC build choice balance problem with the duelist.

I'm also finding the descriptions of what you have considered interesting, as I am looking at similar approach to playtesting, but going my own route and automating them (with the payoff being I will have a framework to assess other mechanics and game systems, or maybe my own custom tweaks to 5E). I'm a long, long way from running anything with the sophistication of your tests (so far I am still working on adding multiple characters, and can only support very simplified character and monster models - no choices for CS dice for instance), but seeing what you considered and used gives me pointers where I should be taking it. So, many thanks for explaining those details!

Yup. That does indeed mitigate the net vs gross damage issue which was another consideration in the HP inflation.

I'm glad they helped and I wish you luck on your tests. I'm likely going to take a look at the Sorceror and the Warlock when I have a bit of time here in the near future (both strategic/out of combat and tactical/combat). I just have an expectation of the sorceror to likely be iterated multiple times (and possibly look nothing like this one) so I'm less inclined to even mess with it right now. I think the Warlock may not stray too terribly far from what they currently have so testing it might be bear fruit.

If you do end up doing strategic or tactical tests, I would be interested in seeing your results.

Further if someone has specific tests that they would like run (strategic or tactical), just give me an idea what you want run, I'll run some parameters by you and I can post the results when finished. Currently, I'm thinking of running a test with an alternate Rogue Duelist scheme that allows a "set-up strike" for advantage on the Rogue's next attack. This would, in effect, be the same as hiding one round and attacking the next...just a different flavor and a different check; Attack vs AC instead of Hide vs Perception.