How do you backstab an ooze? (and more general play time considerations)

[Frankie1969]

In my game world I'm planning to make oozes immune to combat advantage (and probably prone) but give them a couple damage vulnerabilities (different for each type of ooze). Obviously this handicaps rogues (and enhances poly-elemental blasters with high skill checks). Is that a bad thing?

IMO, rogues get plenty of opportunities to scout/ambush/disarm/unlock/etc while the rest of the party waits around, so they shouldn't mind being less effective in some encounters. Agree? Disagree?

And what else could I add for player balance? In the big picture, I think over the course of an adventure there should be a few times where each PC takes center stage while others are in the back seat.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

In my game world I'm planning to make oozes immune to combat advantage (and probably prone) but give them a couple damage vulnerabilities (different for each type of ooze). Obviously this handicaps rogues (and enhances poly-elemental blasters with high skill checks). Is that a bad thing?

IMO, rogues get plenty of opportunities to scout/ambush/disarm/unlock/etc while the rest of the party waits around, so they shouldn't mind being less effective in some encounters. Agree? Disagree?

And what else could I add for player balance? In the big picture, I think over the course of an adventure there should be a few times where each PC takes center stage while others are in the back seat.

It doesn't have to be a bad thing, but it easily could be. Depends a lot on whether this is bothering just you or the whole group, whether it is the only thing that bothers who it bothers, or just an example in a long list, etc.

4E isn't catering to either of the intents in the next two paragraphs. Anyone with Sneak can scout. Thievery is only one feat away from any character. 4E is rife with such choices--see Ritual Caster feat. And 4E is very much geared to "all characters can shine in every scene if they are so inclined."

That doesn't mean that you can't tweak it, especially if the whole group just has a few things that bug them, or that don't fit the tone of the game you are going for.

Do you already have experience with 4E? If so, then you should know what is bugging the group and be able to deal with it. If not, I'd suggest starting with no changes, but set up front that you (the collective "you") will deal with problems as they arise.

OTOH, if you thinking that, "Oozes don't have fronts. Therefore they should never grant combat advantage," then you are probably in for a world or rude surprises from 4E. Oozes getting stabbed in the vitals is just the tip of the iceberg.

Oh, and to answer the title, the way you sneak attack an ooze is that you throw a rock to distract it, wait a few seconds for it to turn, then stab it.

 

[Noctos]

no i would agree you can't back stab an ooze they don't have backs they are a magical being and don't use eyes to see.

i naver had any person in one of my games even attempt cause they know i would have denied it.

 

[aco175]

There have been several threads on things such as this. How can you knock prone a snake, and many others. Most people come to say that the effect happens either under a more thought out circumstance or simply because the list would become too long. Something along the lines of the cube being distracted by one opponent and the thief can get in, or the snake is not prone, but rolled over and still same effect.

 

[eriktheguy]

To be clear, oozes don't need to have backs because rogues don't backstab. They sneak attack. The sneak attack entry makes no mention of backs, weak points, vital organs, or anatomy. If you started playing D&D with 4e, you probably would not assume that opponents without weak points cannot be sneak attacked. It is a relic of older times.

I just allow it in my game. Nothing about oozes really makes any realistic sense, so trying to deny players damage saying "it's not realistic" is basically jut punishing them for not being wizards.

In previous editions, magic often got a veto against such immunities.
The rogue proclaims "I attack vital points for extra damage" and suddenly their attacks fail to work against half the monsters in the book.
The wizard sees this folly and learns from it. "My attacks are magic! They're a mystery". It's suddenly hard to argue why they shouldn't work.
For some reason, formless ghosts take less damage from physical attacks, but full damage from fire or lighting. If only a physics major were there to explain how fire and lightning work! The wizard's attacks would lose their mystery and ghosts would be immune to those (very physical) effects as well.

But in 4e we did away with most of that. Maybe the rogue just takes a few extra jabs against undefended foes. Maybe he has time to give the blade an extra twist and shove because the foe who grants combat advantage is not defending themselves properly. The bottom line is, rogues with combat advantage deal more damage.

4e is about strengths, not weaknesses. There are no more monsters immune to sneak attacks or critical hits (why shouldn't a construct have a critical part that can be broken, why shouldn't a zombie die when you break its neck)? There are no more anti-magic fields (oh look, a beholder. I'll put the wand away and go sit down while the fighter handles this).

If you want to give the wizard a chance to shine, make the oozes weak against area attacks in your encounter. You could certainly argue why it should be true. I don't think that taking away the rogue's striker mechanic against oozes is a good solution to your problem.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

How do oozes even be?

Therein lies your answer ;p

 

[Noctos]

ooze's don't see they sense the area there for they would sense you there for you can't sneak. unless you had a non presence cast on you

 

[ProfessorCirno]

To answer the question - because the <enemy> is being caught by surprise and, as a <class with certain type of attack>, you can use it's unawareness to capitalize and hit beneath it's normal defenses.

It's not a backstab - it's you catching them defenseless and knowing just how to capitalize on it.

 

[bbjore]

How does a rogue sneak attack an ooze? I have no idea. What I do know is that the rogue in my campaign sneak attacks all manner of crazy stuff all the time, and absolutely murders stuff in the process. If I ever get a chance to step across the barrier and ask the rogue, you can be sure it'd be one of the first things I'd ask. Until then, I just accept it, just like I accept the crazy Eladrin teleporting all over the place, those wizards burning things with both acid and fire at the same time, and that fighter's ability to convince every bad guy in a three square radius to walk right up to him and stand there once an encounter.

There's lots of stuff in D&D that defies easy explanation, but there's also nothing in the 4E rules that says an ooze has no anatomy. The glossary just says they are amorphous. So as a DM when I'm pressed for an explanation on how sneak attack work I usually say something along the lines of, you ready your blade for the moment it reaches out with a pseudopod, and you swiftly lop it off, or while it is occupied by the fighter, you notice a slightly more solid bit that you believe may hold more of its neural network and plunge your blade deeply into the area. When the fighter prones and ooze, I describe it as smashing it against the floor, and the ooze must take a move action to collect itself.

You could spend days arguing and discussing how things really work, and the rules are probably vague on a lot of those things in order to grant each group the freedom to describe how rule interactions should look in your mind's eye. So if you really feel that a rogue can't take advantage of a distracted opponent, talk it over with your rogue and make some rules. With my group though, I've found we're usually better serviced playing by the rules, letting each PC shine in the way it was designed to shine, and then thinking of imaginative ways for how exactly that happened.

 

[eriktheguy]

ooze's don't see they sense the area there for they would sense you there for you can't sneak. unless you had a non presence cast on you

Oozes automatically succeed perception checks against enemies touching the ground within 10 squares, make checks as normal against those within 10 squares who aren't touching the ground, and cannot make checks to perceive enemies farther away. This means a rogue firing at an ooze from outside 10 squares gets that CA automatically.
A rogue closer up can still 'sneak' by flanking.