How Do You Determine the AC for Spectral Hand?

[Aluvial]

I don't know how to figure the AC of Spectral Hand. Here is the relevent passage...

The hand is incorporeal and thus cannot be harmed by normal weapons. It has improved evasion (half damage on a failed Reflex save and no damage on a successful save), your save bonuses, and an AC of at least 22. Your Intelligence modifier applies to the hand’s AC as if it were the hand’s Dexterity modifier.

So, an AC of at least 22. Is that based on some formula that I can't seem to figure out, say based on minimum ability score to cast a 2nd level spell, or is it base 22, add the Intelligence modifier?

Aluvial

 

[skelso]

Though I could be interpreting is very incorrectly, when I just ran a villain using Spectral Hand, I gave it an AC of 22+Int Mod. Perhaps it could be argued that it should be 21+Int Mod, because you have to have an Intelligence of 12 to cast it as a Wizard. However, a Sorceror could cast this spell with an Intelligence of 8, which would mean 21-1, but still 22, because that's the minimum.


Blah, blah, blah. I read it as 22+Int, but never less than 22.

 

[VanRichten]

Based on the way it reads I would go with 21 + INT modifier. Meaning that at minimum it would have a 22 ac with the required 12 INT to even cast the spell.

You could break it down as this.

Base: +10
INT Bonus: +X (minimum +1)
Size: +8
Natural: +3

Should give you a decent breakdown if you really need one.

 

[Aluvial]

Though I could be interpreting is very incorrectly, when I just ran a villain using Spectral Hand, I gave it an AC of 22+Int Mod. Perhaps it could be argued that it should be 21+Int Mod, because you have to have an Intelligence of 12 to cast it as a Wizard. However, a Sorceror could cast this spell with an Intelligence of 8, which would mean 21-1, but still 22, because that's the minimum.


Blah, blah, blah. I read it as 22+Int, but never less than 22.

Well.... he needs an Int of at least 12 to cast 2nd level spells by the rules...

Aluvial

 

[Aluvial]

Based on the way it reads I would go with 22 + INT modifier. Meaning that at minimum it would have a 23 ac with the required 12 INT to even cast the spell.

That's where I have the problem.... if it were at least a minimum of 23, then it would say that.

This is (as far as I know) the only spell that partially does the calculation for you... and if that is the case, then the spell starts with a base 21, with a minimum of abilitiy of 12, which is a +1, which is where the minimum of 22 comes from...

But hey, that's why I'm asking!

Aluvial

 

[VanRichten]

Just and FYI I corrected my calculations.

But to answer your question it does stay "AC of at least 22" and that "Your Intelligence modifier applies to the hand’s AC as if it were the hand’s Dexterity modifier."

From that we can understand that the meaning of "at least" means that at minimum casting level it has that AC.

Since we know the minimum intelligence it takes to cast the spell is a 12.

Now we know that a intelligence of 12 gives a +1 bonus

So if the minimum is 22 and 12 is the minimun intelligence it takes to cast it. Would that not meant that 1 point of that 22 AC is from intelligence?

If this is true then our Spectral Hand has a base AC of 21 + X, X = Casters Intelligence Bonus.

The thing we have to understand is the terminology. The term "at least" means that is can have higher than that. And it identifies this by stating that it increases based on the casters Intelligence.

 

[skelso]

One thing I pointed out earlier that no one has addressed is that a Sorcerer could cast this spell with an Intelligence much less than 12. I'd be more convinced if the description referred to the caster's primary casting attribute instead of Intelligence.

 

[Aluvial]

One thing I pointed out earlier that no one has addressed is that a Sorcerer could cast this spell with an Intelligence much less than 12. I'd be more convinced if the description referred to the caster's primary casting attribute instead of Intelligence.

This is a really good point.. And something that I missed...

But then, I think they must of made some type of mistake, and the text should have read that the bonus was based on the caster's prime ability modifier to spells, not just Int. Worse, it makes a lot more sense to just say that the spell has a base whatever (I think 21) and then add the caster's ability modifier from their spellcasting ability.

If we go off the base 22 method, where Intelligence is the only modifier, even for sorcerers, then the AC obviosly is higher... the tricky word there is minimum.

Aluvial

 

[skelso]

Looking at the Sorcerer further, take the example of one with an Intelligence of 3, but a Charisma of 12. The sorc could cast the spell, but would have an Intelligence modifier of -4. Since this is a possibility AND the modifier gets factored into the AC AND the AC is always at least 22, this might actually imply that the AC before the modifier would be 26 (26 + -4 Modifier = 22) so the hypothetical case of an Int 12 caster would have an AC of 27. I don't really feel this is the case, but this is the next logical step of the argument.

Generally, the simplest explanation is the correct one. When looking at an explanation, it's better not to overthink it, but rather read it as though you are someone who doesn't think about stuff too deeply. The simplest explanation is that the hand has an AC of 22, but that it gains the Int mod as a bonus to AC. The spirit of the rules was probably intended to be that the primary casting attribute was applied rather than strictly Int, but this spell doesn't get a lot of attention from anyone.

However, the villain who used it in the last game I ran used it to great effect. It became one of my new favorite spells, so long as there is time before the fight to cast it.

 

[glass]

Well.... he needs an Int of at least 12 to cast 2nd level spells by the rules...

Unless you are a Sorcerer (as others have pointed out), or it is an SLA (in which case neither Int nor Cha might be over 11).

FWIW, the spell is unhelpfully silent on how you calculate it. I would be inclined to say either 22 +Int bonus, or 18 +Int bonus (min 22) if it ever came up in my game (which funnily enough it never has).


glass.