How do you handle DC 0 Epic Spells?

[andargor]

It is theoretically possible to create a DC 0 (or DC < 0) Epic Spell, which costs 0 gp and 0 XP to create, and takes 0 days to develop. How to you handle them?

Do you allow the caster to create those "on the fly"? Basically an Epic Cantrip? Or do you require a minimum of one day's research with the associated costs?

For example, these spells could be considered "useful", even at DC <= 0:

• +6 Natural Armor for 24 hours (Seed: Armor (DC 14), +4 NAC base, +2 NAC (+4 DC), Casting time 10 minute (-18 DC), Spellcraft DC 0)
  
• Combination Heal and Greater Restoration (Seed: Heal (DC 25), Casting time 10 minute (-18 DC), 1 additional caster (spell slot 4th, -7 DC), Spellcraft DC 0)
  
• DR 20/- for 24 hours (Seed: Ward (DC 14), DR 20/- (DC 34), Casting time 10 minutes (-18 DC), 3 additional casters (slot 6th, -33 DC), Spellcraft DC -3)

Andargor

 

[MerakSpielman]

The main problem is the 0-cost to create. The spells themselves don't seem that bad, really, seeing as how they'll each take up an Epic spell slot to cast, which could have been used for something much more powerful.

 

[Len]

I'm pretty sure Sepulchrave allows players to cast those on the fly. I can't find where he described it though. (The DC for forum searching is > 0. Hopefully we'll all get a circumstance bonus when the new server comes in.)

 

[darthkilmor]

Or just say that anything with a DC under, say, 20, isnt an epic spell and the character needs to rethink it and research it as a 0-9th lvl spell.

+6 nat armor for 24 hours would be a reasonable 5th lvl spell I would say.

DR 20/- for 24 would be a reasonable 7th or 6th lvl spell i would say ( since it doesnt quit after absorbing X number of hp)

 

[DanMcS]

It is theoretically possible to create a DC 0 (or DC < 0) Epic Spell, which costs 0 gp and 0 XP to create, and takes 0 days to develop. How to you handle them?

Do you allow the caster to create those "on the fly"? Basically an Epic Cantrip? Or do you require a minimum of one day's research with the associated costs?

I completely would allow and encourage such spells. I thought they were neat in Sepulchrave's story hour, and they work well conceptually for me. An epic level caster has such a good grasp of how magic works, fundamentally, that he can create world-warping spells of magnificent scale and effect. It seems only natural that with a flick of his mind, he could create such minor effects as easily as breathing.

 

[Eremite]

I completely would allow and encourage such spells. I thought they were neat in Sepulchrave's story hour, and they work well conceptually for me. An epic level caster has such a good grasp of how magic works, fundamentally, that he can create world-warping spells of magnificent scale and effect. It seems only natural that with a flick of his mind, he could create such minor effects as easily as breathing.

Well argued.

 

[RangerWickett]

I'm not that familiar with epic spellcasting. Is there a limit to how many you can know, or can you just create as many as you can afford?

 

[Kerrick]

You can know up to 1 spell per 10 ranks of Knowledge (religion) or (arcana). While Dan provides a good argument, I think that no epic spell should have a DC below 30 - otherwise it's considered a 0-9 level spell. In any case, even 0-level spells have to be researched (which requires time and gold) - even a powerful caster shouldn't be able to just whip off the equivalent of a 10th-level spell off the top of his head.

 

[Squire James]

If you follow these guy's suggestion, the caster can "research" as many of them as needed with no time or resources. The only limitation is how many epic slots per day the character can cast.

This is essentially trading off less-than-epic strength of spell for ease of use. The system works as long as it's made clear that epic wizards are NOT going to ever get 100 days of free time on their hands...

 

[irdeggman]

I agree there is a difference between researching a new spell (i.e., learning one) and casting one.

Casting on the fly is different than having one in the character's knowledge base.

Per the ELH it takes 1 day per 50,000gp in resources (rounded up). So it takes a minimum of 1 day to research a new Epic level spell regardless of its DC.