How do you handle (mundane) item pricing?

[Steverooo]

Armors, custom work, and pricing:

I do know a bit about making armor (more from an academic than a practical standpoint, anyway), and can reccommend a couple of books on the subject, if you're interested... Anyway, YOU are right that the Halfling armor would cost as much as normal armor, ordinarily. YOUR PLAYER is correct that, in Medieval times, all crafts are basically custom made... Remember, there are no machinery-made mass-produced items. Everything is made by hand.

Are there items sitting around on the shelves? Sure there are! What do you think the smith is doing with his time? Whenever there are no customers in the shop, he will be practicing his art, making something. How much stuff does he have? Depends on the area... If armors are regularly being sold to a large adventuring population, he won't have time to make enough (and more smiths will be opening shops). If it is an area with only occasional sales, he will have as many items sitting around as he has room to store (and may lower his prices).

Even with all items being hand-made and basically custom, however, it shouldn't take additional time to make most forms of armor... Making Halfling maille is no harder than Human maille. The rings are the same size, and the suit is smaller. The exceptions are armors which require "forms".

When the cuirboilli breastplate for Leather Armor is made, for instance, leather is wrapped around a wooden form, which is then immersed in a pot of boiling parafin (wax). The boiling process causes it to shrink, and become almost as hard as metal. Now MAKING the armor is no more difficult, but if you don't have the form for a child/Halfling, then you have to have a woodcarver make one...

Any plate (platemail, field plate, full plate), and even breastplates, banded, lamellar, splint, etc., will have to be forged on an anvil, and probably uses some sort of form, as well. Since the smith doesn't really need the form, except for measuring, however, (s)he could still do the work without it, PROVIDING that the Halfling made themself available for frequent "fittings" to make sure the armor fit right... OR, they could pay to have Halfling-sized forms made to their measurements, so that the smith could use them, instead (so there's your excuse for charging a bit extra, but personally, I'd limit it to - say - 10% more than the base price).

By the bayou, howsomever, the idea that a Halfling-sized suit of maille (improperly called "chainmail", a Victorian-era misonym for maille) would cost as much as a normal-sized one is ridiculous. It would actually take both less time and materials to make the smaller shirt. Smiths pre-made rings of maille, and had them sitting around, waiting for repairs or the making of new suits, so the PHB prices (while official!) are "wrong", in my eyes... Then again, find me a Fantasy RPG whose prices AREN'T, eh?

The entire Crafts system needs an overhaul... For a craftsman capable of making both, an item with a DC of five will take MORE time than an item with a DC of 20! There is something seriously wrong with that, IMHO! YMMV.

 

[John Crichton]

Re: Armors, custom work, and pricing:

I do know a bit about making armor (more from an academic than a practical standpoint, anyway), and can reccommend a couple of books on the subject, if you're interested... Anyway, YOU are right that the Halfling armor would cost as much as normal armor, ordinarily. YOUR PLAYER is correct that, in Medieval times, all crafts are basically custom made... Remember, there are no machinery-made mass-produced items. Everything is made by hand.

Are there items sitting around on the shelves? Sure there are! What do you think the smith is doing with his time? Whenever there are no customers in the shop, he will be practicing his art, making something. How much stuff does he have? Depends on the area... If armors are regularly being sold to a large adventuring population, he won't have time to make enough (and more smiths will be opening shops). If it is an area with only occasional sales, he will have as many items sitting around as he has room to store (and may lower his prices).

Even with all items being hand-made and basically custom, however, it shouldn't take additional time to make most forms of armor... Making Halfling maille is no harder than Human maille. The rings are the same size, and the suit is smaller. The exceptions are armors which require "forms".

When the cuirboilli breastplate for Leather Armor is made, for instance, leather is wrapped around a wooden form, which is then immersed in a pot of boiling parafin (wax). The boiling process causes it to shrink, and become almost as hard as metal. Now MAKING the armor is no more difficult, but if you don't have the form for a child/Halfling, then you have to have a woodcarver make one...

Any plate (platemail, field plate, full plate), and even breastplates, banded, lamellar, splint, etc., will have to be forged on an anvil, and probably uses some sort of form, as well. Since the smith doesn't really need the form, except for measuring, however, (s)he could still do the work without it, PROVIDING that the Halfling made themself available for frequent "fittings" to make sure the armor fit right... OR, they could pay to have Halfling-sized forms made to their measurements, so that the smith could use them, instead (so there's your excuse for charging a bit extra, but personally, I'd limit it to - say - 10% more than the base price).

By the bayou, howsomever, the idea that a Halfling-sized suit of maille (improperly called "chainmail", a Victorian-era misonym for maille) would cost as much as a normal-sized one is ridiculous. It would actually take both less time and materials to make the smaller shirt. Smiths pre-made rings of maille, and had them sitting around, waiting for repairs or the making of new suits, so the PHB prices (while official!) are "wrong", in my eyes... Then again, find me a Fantasy RPG whose prices AREN'T, eh?

The entire Crafts system needs an overhaul... For a craftsman capable of making both, an item with a DC of five will take MORE time than an item with a DC of 20! There is something seriously wrong with that, IMHO! YMMV.

That is some damn good input. Thank you right up front.

As for your answers to my basic question, they pretty much jive with what I was thinking. I was only thinking that because of the nature of the armour (half-plate) to charge a bit extra. I mentioned above between 10-20% depending on some haggling rolls, charisma and all that. I wouldn't see a shopkeep or smith charging more for something like leather armour because it is cheaper and I could see some kids wearing it (ex: a father taking his son out to the forest for some hunting may want some extra protection).

It also answers my question of familiarity, in the mold example you gave. If there are no folks of that size needing and type of plate made then there wouldn't be easy access to any molds, therefore a small boost in price would be in order. However in other areas this wouldn't even be the case as the molds would be available and thus, no price bump. Does that sound reasonable?

 

[Conaill]

Re: Armors, custom work, and pricing:

For a craftsman capable of making both, an item with a DC of five will take MORE time than an item with a DC of 20! There is something seriously wrong with that, IMHO! YMMV.

Don't want to hijack this thread, but this is a common misunderstanding. The Craft system is set up such that a DC 5 item that takes 4 weeks to craft (lots of time consuming busy work) is priced the same as a DC 20 item hat only takes one week to craft.

If you think of the price as being determined by the DC times the time to craft, suddenly the system makes a lot more sense. It's just a way to "reverse engineer" the time to craft, given a table of priced items.

So yes, a DC 5 item takes longer to craft than a DC 20 of the same price. If it took less long to craft, at a lower DC, it's price should be much less than the DC 20 item.

 

[Steverooo]

Re: Armors, custom work, and pricing:

That is some damn good input. Thank you right up front.

As for your answers to my basic question, they pretty much jive with what I was thinking. I was only thinking that because of the nature of the armour (half-plate) to charge a bit extra. I mentioned above between 10-20% depending on some haggling rolls, charisma and all that. I wouldn't see a shopkeep or smith charging more for something like leather armour because it is cheaper and I could see some kids wearing it (ex: a father taking his son out to the forest for some hunting may want some extra protection).

Good point.

It also answers my question of familiarity, in the mold example you gave. If there are no folks of that size needing and type of plate made then there wouldn't be easy access to any molds, therefore a small boost in price would be in order. However in other areas this wouldn't even be the case as the molds would be available and thus, no price bump. Does that sound reasonable?

Sounds reasonable to me... but note I said "forms", not "moulds". As far as I am aware, no plate armor was molded. It was all forged, with hammer and anvil. A "form" is like an armor-dummy upon which you fit/hang the pieces, and compare them to, when shaping...

"No, that piece needs to be hammered in a bit more... It still fits too loosely.''

"Oops! Too much! Now I'll have to reheat it, and unbend it a bit, or it'll fit too tight, and you won't be able to get your ribs into it!"

As the first post said, the smith can do it with the rounded, sticking-out piece of the anvil (I forget what it's called), but may have to use a smaller anvil. The Halfling's measurements will tell him most of what he needs to know, but he will also want the Halfling to stop by, every couple of days, to check the fit of the pieces he has finished hammering on...

If the Halfling doesn't want to do that (every few days, for as long as it takes to forge a suit of plate), then he needs to pay for the proper-sized form. Then the smith can fit the pieces to the dummy, instead of the Halfwit... uh, Halfling!

In other words, you was right, all along!

 

[Kichwas]

Logically any metal armor should always be custom made to fit the body.

The same with leather armors really, though it is possible to take a set and tailor it a bit to fit.

If you had a medieval economy, swords should be very hard to come by due to the scarcity of good metals. But of course that isnt how D&D works.

Most people probably would want a custom made sword, and a demand for such should not at all suprise a weaponsmith. Premade swords are more likely the thing you make for the local lord's armory. The local noble would probably task all his weaponsmith's to turn out a certain number of them every so often in order to stock up for warfare or even to send off to his leige's armory as a tax payment.

But individuals with the right to carry a weapon would most likely go in and give the details of what they wanted, then come back in a few weeks for the finished product.

 

[Steverooo]

Re: Craft DCs, time, and price

Don't want to hijack this thread, but this is a common misunderstanding. The Craft system is set up such that a DC 5 item that takes 4 weeks to craft (lots of time consuming busy work) is priced the same as a DC 20 item hat only takes one week to craft.

If you think of the price as being determined by the DC times the time to craft, suddenly the system makes a lot more sense. It's just a way to "reverse engineer" the time to craft, given a table of priced items.

So yes, a DC 5 item takes longer to craft than a DC 20 of the same price. If it took less long to craft, at a lower DC, it's price should be much less than the DC 20 item.

So the DC 5 (easier to craft) item isn't really easier to craft?

Yeah, I read the description of the Craft skill in the PHB, too... I've also sat down and computed many, many, many item's craft times, with an eye towards making simple stone tools, etc., and there are some oddities.

I dislike the Crafts system for many reasons, which I won't get into, here. YMMV, of course.

 

[Steverooo]

Armouring

Logically any metal armor should always be custom made to fit the body.

Leather (other than the cuirboilli parts), cloth, studded leather, and maille certainly don't need to be. The leather and padded can simply be cinched up. The maille simply hangs loosely. Armor made with pieces of solid metal or hard leather would need to be, yes.

The same with leather armors really, though it is possible to take a set and tailor it a bit to fit.

If you had a medieval economy, swords should be very hard to come by due to the scarcity of good metals. But of course that isnt how D&D works.

Nah, the Dwarves fixed alla that!

Most people probably would want a custom made sword, and a demand for such should not at all suprise a weaponsmith. Premade swords are more likely the thing you make for the local lord's armory. The local noble would probably task all his weaponsmith's to turn out a certain number of them every so often in order to stock up for warfare or even to send off to his leige's armory as a tax payment.

Medieval peasants (and even skilled craftsmen) usually didn't see much money. Taxes could be levied in chickens, etc., but were, indeed, often levied in terms of "service". Farmers could be drafted for X-many days/year to go to war, or (in times of peace) work repairing the roads. Indeed, one of the limitations on kingly power in the Magna Carta was to put limits on the number of days the king could command, so that the farmers would have enough time to work their fields!

Craftsmen, however, weren't mere farmers, and those who could make weapons and armour were, indeed, "taxed" in this fashion. Some of them worked half the year making things for their liege, and the other half earning a living for themselves.

But individuals with the right to carry a weapon would most likely go in and give the details of what they wanted, then come back in a few weeks for the finished product.

 

[John Crichton]

Re: Re: Armors, custom work, and pricing:

Sounds reasonable to me... but note I said "forms", not "moulds". As far as I am aware, no plate armor was molded. It was all forged, with hammer and anvil. A "form" is like an armor-dummy upon which you fit/hang the pieces, and compare them to, when shaping...

"No, that piece needs to be hammered in a bit more... It still fits too loosely.''

"Oops! Too much! Now I'll have to reheat it, and unbend it a bit, or it'll fit too tight, and you won't be able to get your ribs into it!"

As the first post said, the smith can do it with the rounded, sticking-out piece of the anvil (I forget what it's called), but may have to use a smaller anvil. The Halfling's measurements will tell him most of what he needs to know, but he will also want the Halfling to stop by, every couple of days, to check the fit of the pieces he has finished hammering on...

Ah, thanks for correcting my terminology, makes more sense that way. Also, you have given me some very good explainations (like the anvil size and custom form) to ease my player's mind. Thanks again.

If the Halfling doesn't want to do that (every few days, for as long as it takes to forge a suit of plate), then he needs to pay for the proper-sized form. Then the smith can fit the pieces to the dummy, instead of the Halfwit... uh, Halfling!

In other words, you was right, all along!

Heheh, I'd like to think I was right but I was somewhat off in my explaination to my player about the situation. I'm hoping this will make things sound more reasonable to him now that I have a little more real-world knowledge to back it up.

 

[drnuncheon]

Re: Re: Craft DCs, time, and price

So the DC 5 (easier to craft) item isn't really easier to craft?

Sure it is. It's only DC 5. It's incredibly easy to do.

Remember that most items that are DC5 are also going to cost less than items that are DC15. If you've got a DC5 item that costs as much as a DC15 item, that means that even though it's easy work, it takes longer to make. Otherwise - taadaa! - it would be cheaper.

OK, let's go with an example. An iron pot is DC10 and costs 5 sp. A breastplate is DC 15 and costs 200 gp. Two smiths, each with a +10 to their roll, begin crafting. They take 10.

By the time Smith #2 is done with the breastplate (almost 7 weeks later), Smith #1 has made about two hundred iron pots, depending on whether he does daily or weekly checks. Based on that, I'd say that making iron pots is considerably easier than making a breastplate.

If Smith #1 were to set out to make an iron pot that cost 200 gp - I'm not sure what kind of iron pot that would be, but it'd probably be pretty damn big - then yes, it would take him longer than it took Smith #2 to finish the breastplate. That's because it's easier work, and therefore he can't charge as much for it. It's always best to make the most difficult item you can with your level of skill, because the toughter the item. the less competition there is, and the higher price you can charge. Banging out pots is for apprentices.

J

 

[Dinkeldog]

The first thing I would say as player is, "Well, why didn't you tell me up front that halflings weren't allowed. I'll play the elf like you want me to."

My point is it sounds like pointless railroading. Unless you really wanted no one to play a gnome, halfling or dwarf, in which case you should state that at the outset.