How do you measure "Timing"?

[GMMichael]

I am wondering how you measure a character's "timing", for example sliding under a closing door or jumping between moving platforms, is it just a case of movement/jump skill and assume the character times it perfectly?

I have considered the "it just doesn't work with D&D mechanics" argument but I was wondering if there was a way

You have to think about it in terms of difficulty, not timing. Two moving platforms are swinging toward each other, and Simon Belmont needs to get across. If those platforms are moving slow, it's an easy task. If they're moving fast, a hard task. For the difficulty bonus or DC, just decide what the odds of success are (for a commoner), and convert to fractions of 20.

Slow moving platforms, 50% chance. DC is a flat 11.
Medium-speed platforms, little bit harder. 40% chance. DC is 13.
Fast moving platforms, really hard, 10% chance. DC is 19.

Another consideration is that you must think of modifiers stemming from the character's quickness. As other posters mentioned, dexterity, wisdom, even intelligence could be "quickness modifiers." So could flat-footedness, improved initiative, or uncanny dodge.

 

[Abraxus]

I would use a concentrate check if the player is actively trying to time their jump.

Otherwise I would just raise the Jump DC.

 

[Omegaxicor]

Thanks all, several good ideas and a general consensus.

I would use a concentrate check if the player is actively trying to time their jump.

Otherwise I would just raise the Jump DC.

I like that, a Concentration check, DC=20/15/10 depending on the duration (1-3 rounds), or a penalty to the Jump/Tumble check (with a Dex modifier)

and I agree the example of the closing door was a poor one but I couldn't think of a better one...you can tell I want the players to jump between several moving platforms, huh?

 

[Celebrim]

Thanks all, several good ideas and a general consensus.

Yes, but sadly the general consensus is wrong. This is not a skill check. This is a reflex save.

To prove that, let's simplify. Say you want to run a scenario where the PC's must jump off of one moving platform on to solid ground or off solid ground on to one moving platform. Lets say they have only one chance to do so, and failure means something bad happens - they are stuck in a room with a horde of orcs, they crash into the ground, they are dumped into a pool of water infested with cave piranha's or whatever.

What sort of scenario is this?

It's a trap. A series of challenges like the above is just a gauntlet of traps. How are traps evaded in 3e D&D? By making a reflex save. Why is this important? Well first, because the rogue ought to be the character that is most capable of performing these feats, and in particular the rogue's trap sense should provide an additional bonus. The rogue ought to be the character that is best at running through a gauntlet of traps. This is his silo'd shtick. It's how the rogue solves problems. If the problem is solved by concentration skill checks, it implies the spell casters are better than the rogue at running through a gauntlet of physical challenges. This is not what you want to do.

So let's say I have a series of swinging platforms above some sort of hazard. This is essentially a series of traps. How would I run the challenge assuming that the player is going to take the challenge head on? Well, to time his jumps correctly he must make a reflex check. That's what 'reflexes' are for. The DC can be reasonably low. Timing a jump correctly is something you'd expect normal people to often get right by shear luck. So let's say, DC 10 or DC 12 if they attempt a running start, though we could use 5 or 7 if the platforms are moving quite slowly or 15 and 17 if the platforms are moving quickly. What does failure mean?

Failure means one of two things depending on the situation and how generous you are. It means either 1) you jumped into empty space and have no choice but to fall, or else 2) you jumped in less than optimal circumstances, meaning that the platforms will be further apart than they could be, implying that the jump check is harder.

The first case is easy to run. If they fail the reflex save, it doesn't matter what their jump check is they end up missing the platform (though 'failed by 1 or less' should be a special case IMO). This is a good choice if the platforms are quite small and moving at high speed perpendicular to the direction you have to jump to reach them. If the platforms are fairly large and moving in relatively the same direction you have to jump, then the second method is probably better.

The second case, if they fail the reflex check, they just need to jump farther and they'll still make it. For each point they missed the reflex save by, add 1 (or 2) points to the DC of the jump check (depending on how fast the platforms are moving).

In either case, we need to decide what the minimum distance you need to jump in order to reach the next platform. I suggest something reasonably small - say 5'. If you have a much longer distance, you'll end up in a situation where no one but the rogue is capable of performing the task without recourse to magic. Remember that if the player misses the jump by a small distance - say 3' or less - they still might be able to grab the edge of the platform (DC 20 climb check) to avoid disaster.

When designing scenarios like this, I'd strongly advise you once you've selected some numbers to work out the exact odds that each member of your party has in navigating the challenge. The odds that the most atheletic characters have of completing the obstacle should be above 90%. If they aren't, you are not actually having the scenario you think you have. If the best odds the party can have of completing the challenge the way you intend are below 90%, then the real scenario is, "Figure out some way to get across that doesn't involve jumping from platform to platform."

 

[Omegaxicor]

*Snip*

Good point, I thought of Concentration as focusing on the problem but it does mean spellcasters would be better than Rogues, maybe have multiple ways of making the check based on what the characters are skilled at:

The Rogue leaps and lets his skills and reflexes guide him, requiring a Jump check and a Reflex save,
The Wizard thinks about and calculates the correct position for the platforms before Jumping, requiring a Concentration (Int) check and a Jump check,
etc.

Different strategies for different strengths.

 

[Celebrim]

Good point, I thought of Concentration as focusing on the problem but it does mean spellcasters would be better than Rogues, maybe have multiple ways of making the check based on what the characters are skilled at:

The Rogue leaps and lets his skills and reflexes guide him, requiring a Jump check and a Reflex save,
The Wizard thinks about and calculates the correct position for the platforms before Jumping, requiring a Concentration (Int) check and a Jump check,
etc.

Different strategies for different strengths.

Well, that would be one approach, but it wouldn't be mine necessarily.

Early on in Dragonlance, the party has to climb down a tall vine covered cliff. Most of the party is martial types and begins climbing down the cliff. The sickly and not particularly strong wizard Raistlin though takes one look at the cliff, decides better of the climb and leaps out into the open air - then casts featherfall to descend in safety.

The rogue is a martial/skill monkey class. It solves problems by applying its skills and leaps nimbly and gracefully from platform to platform.

Spellcasters IMO solve problems by casting spells. In this case, the spellcaster might cast levitate and rise to the ceiling, before walking his way across the ceiling on his hands. Or perhaps they cast Jump to gain a huge temporary bonus on their jump skill. Or Spider Climb, to climb down the pit and up the other side. Or Alter Self to grow wings and slowly fly across. Or he summons a monstrous bat to carry him across.

The fighter gets across by the sheer power of his jumps. Leaping across, grabbing on to the side of the platforms if he misses, and hauling himself up with brute strength - the whole time knowing that if he does fall, he's got the fortitude to handle it. At higher levels maybe he gets across flying on the back of his trained griffin.

 

[Sunseeker]

It's an ability challenge. If it is a very specific skillset, it's a skill challenge. Otherwise your "timing" is just a raw check, with the ability in use depending on what needs to be accomplished, or a very good argument from the character.

For a jumping puzzle, reflex. For knowing when to time the power-overloard on the reactor core: intelligence. For knowing when to shut your mouth and not piss off the King: Charisma, possibly wisdom.

Readied actions also help. When people say they want to do something special at a specific time, I generally give them a bonus because they've basically said they're taking extra effort when making their action.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Yes, but sadly the general consensus is wrong. This is not a skill check. This is a reflex save.

I could not possibly disagree more. Saves are saving throws. They save you from bad stuff. Barring extremely weird circumstances - you choose to drink poison, or cast a Fireball at yourself - you never make a save in order to resolve an action which you yourself initiate.

Even the Fireball example is kind of dodgy, given that your own Reflexes wouldn't necessarily kick in if you know exactly when it's coming. At best, you might resolve it as a Jump check or Acrobatics or something, with a Reflex save to catch yourself if you fail.

 

[Sunseeker]

I could not possibly disagree more. Saves are saving throws. They save you from bad stuff. Barring extremely weird circumstances - you choose to drink poison, or cast a Fireball at yourself - you never make a save in order to resolve an action which you yourself initiate.

Even the Fireball example is kind of dodgy, given that your own Reflexes wouldn't necessarily kick in if you know exactly when it's coming. At best, you might resolve it as a Jump check or Acrobatics or something, with a Reflex save to catch yourself if you fail.

I would like to state my agreement with your disagreement.

Saves are reactive. Checks are proactive.

Something bad happens to the platform you are on, you make a reflex save to leap to the next platform.

The platform you are on is floating back and forth across a chasm, another platform does the same at differing intervals in front of you. You make a reflex(or some related skill) check to jump from one to the other at the right moment.

If you fail your save in the first situation, something bad happens to you.
If you fail your check in the second situation you now must make a save to keep something bad from happening to you.

I'm not sure how it could possibly be a save and not a skill check when there is no threat to your person for simply choosing to do nothing. You are in no danger. There is nothing to be saved from.

 

[Celebrim]

I would like to state my agreement with your disagreement.

Saves are reactive. Checks are proactive.

The difference between reactive and proactive can be really blurred here. Aren't you reacting to the swinging platform coming near to you? If you know that the floor is about to drop away beneath you because you've triggered a trap, aren't you proactively jumping away from it in the sense that you anticipate a problem and actively jumping away and reacting to stimulus all at the same time? Proactive activity is generally defined by its preparation and taking control of the situation. So, tying a rope around your waist and securing it to some belay before you jump is clearly proactive. Digging a foxhole when you aren't yet in contact with the enemy is clearly proactive. Timing a jump to a narrow window is well a very blurry case, but in general I wouldn't define it as being in control of the situation or acting in a preparatory way. A more proactive move might be using a grappling hook to try to alter the motion of the platforms.

Checks are more often than not active rather than proactive, and in general the cases here are so blurry that I don't find your distinctions particularly useful.

Something bad happens to the platform you are on, you make a reflex save to leap to the next platform.

So suppose that when each platform reached its closest point to the next, it dropped off, which would be defined as something bad happening to you, is it now a reflex save? Suppose you only thought that the platform was about to collapse, what is it?

Suppose we slightly alter the scenario. You are now running down a collapsing bridge or causeway, leaping from stone pillar to stone pillar, just before the one behind you collapses. Is this now reactive or is it still proactive? It's the exact same ability being used whether or not the pillar you are currently on is going to fall 1 round from now or two or ten.

The platform you are on is floating back and forth across a chasm, another platform does the same at differing intervals in front of you. You make a reflex(or some related skill) check to jump from one to the other at the right moment.

If you fail your save in the first situation, something bad happens to you.

I have already specified a scenario where if you fail the save, something bad certainly happens to you.

I'm not sure how it could possibly be a save and not a skill check when there is no threat to your person for simply choosing to do nothing. You are in no danger. There is nothing to be saved from.

I find that to be a particularly tedious and situational way to look at things. A reflex save is used to determine how fast you react. The situation you think you are in or will be in a fraction of a second hense just isn't really relevant because it requires foreknowing what the outcome is. Timing a jump from one platform to the other is exactly the same whether the platform you are leaping from is going to drop away if you hesitate too long, or whether you just believe that it will drop away if you hesitate too long. The important point is that you still must react within a small window of time whether you will be in danger after that window or not. If you jump and miss the window in which you may safely jump, then you certainly will be in danger.

This is really simple. Timing your jump to occur in a small window is a matter of reflexes. Reflexes are measured by your reflex save.