How do you RP marking?

First off, why would the Fighter (or party) be facing enemies that are much higher levels?

Maybe something went wrong and they messed with the wrong guy? The high level Cleric you'd expect them to ally was challenged or pissed and a fight starts? Maybe in a tavern of Sigil the barbarian from the group decided to mock that small pointy ear dude (lv 25 monk) who, in turn, decide to give the barbarian a lesson... this situation already happened on my game.

I don't follow the (metagamist, IMO) idea that all challenges should be appropriate to party's level.
 
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Hey, I play mainly wizards and leaders (cleric & bard), and I don't mind DMs ignoring marks.
In fact, since my builds tend to have high AC, ignoring marks = enemies die faster as well as wasted attacks as they miss me.

Either way, it's mechanically beneficial to the party.

Monster attacks fighter, everyone wins.
Monster attacks me, everyone wins.
 

Hey, I play mainly wizards and leaders (cleric & bard), and I don't mind DMs ignoring marks.
In fact, since my builds tend to have high AC, ignoring marks = enemies die faster as well as wasted attacks as they miss me.

Either way, it's mechanically beneficial to the party.

Monster attacks fighter, everyone wins.
Monster attacks me, everyone wins.
Unfortunately, the OP's party isn't set up to benefit from as many situations. :(
 

Don't bother trying. Its an ability and it just works. Trying to rationalize it will give you a headache.

Why does choosing to attack someone else mean you "ignore" the fighter?

If you are being flanked by a rogue but specifically concentrating on fighting him he still gets sneak attack damage so paying attention to an enemy has NO mechanical effect.

The combat boardgame has its own rules that may or may not connect to the rest of the game in any way.

There is no mechanical BENEFIT to saying "I focus on this enemy".

Unless of course there is. Such as a ranger's ability to focus on an enemy as his quarry, or an avenger's ability to focus his oath of enmity onto a single target.

Again, the only mark that needs to be "rationalize" is going to be the fighter since "magic" can cover just about any rule that may or may not connect to the rest of the game and thus doesn't need to be roleplayed.

While, admitedly, the fighter's mark working when they fighter isn't in a position to attack the person again AND the person the fighter has marked being immune to fear might make the mark seem illogical, that is a case of keeping the game simple being more important than having it make sense in every possible corner case. (See also: elimination of undead having character resistance: rogue) In a situation where a fighter is next to the person they have marked, the fighter is continuing to threaten them with their weapon. A fight isn't just "I hit you and then stand and wait until it's my turn again or I get a chance to interupt" ... that is just how it looks to the players on a macro scale. The fight itself will have a number of parrys, thrusts, feints, etc which accomplish nothing in terms of damage, but for a fighter keeps his enemy from being able to swing at someone else. The same way that anybody is able to punch someone in the face for trying to fire off a ranged/area attack or walk away ... the guy with special training is able to catch subtler tells like swinging against someone other than the fighter, or shifting. And he knows where to hit someone/something to stop it in its tracks.

On your point about ignoring the fighter ... far from it. The mark means that even when you are attacking someone else, you are still focusing on the fighter a little bit ... thus you don't have your full focus on your target and suffer a penalty to the attack. He doesn't get an attack in because you've left yourself open (without the fighter training, he wouldn't have noticed what little opening you did give), but instead he's reinforcing the threats he's making. As for what causes the mark ... -2 is the same as cover or concealment. If the fighter is right next to you, he could easily be doing things to you which just as easily cause a similar effect. If nothing else keeping "one eye on the guy that is threatening and taunting you" would have some effect on your vision/focus/etc.

Heck the magical marks have similar implications. Divine Challenge causes the paladin's allies to seem less clear in the eyes of the one who has been challenged, while the paladin is clear as day, for example. The arcane energy of the Aegis pulls subtlely on the enemies weapon as it strikes against the ally, causing it to either miss, or not hit as hard. The warden's connection to the earth allows him to connect to the enemies nearest to him, allowing him to pull them back or strike at them should they dare refuse to respect his threats. Etc ...

Having a single "this is how it works" isn't going to work. With 4e, you either embrace "it's a game, who cares how it works" or you embrace "there is no single right answer, there can be a myriad of ways to flavor the abilities, and it doesn't have to work the same way each time."
 

I totally get where you are coming from. After all, intelligent opponents shouldn't be COMPELLED to attack someone just cause they marked them, though the others make a point about how ignoring a mark can lead to more punishment.

Let me set this straight once and for all. NOBODY IS COMPELLED TO ATTACK SOMEONE WHO IS MARKING THEM. I don't care what class the marker is, or what abilities or feats they have, MARKING IS 100% A CHOICE. If you get marked by a Fighter, you are under NO obligation WHATSOEVER to attack him. Whether you're intelligent or unintelligent, you can choose to COMPLETELY IGNORE THE MARK each and every time it happens.

But the effects of the Mark still apply.

It's like saying, "My character is tough. He should be able to choose not to be intimidated by the Wizard's Fireball." Yes, that's true. He doesn't need to be intimidated by it at all. He DOES, however, still take the damage, regardless of how "tough" you think he is, and regardless of how intelligent or stalwart he is, he still goes down at 0 HP.

The Fighter's Mark is the same way. In NO WAY WHATSOEVER is it a compulsion, magical or otherwise. It tells the Marked foe, "If I attack the Rogue, I take a penalty to hit and may get whacked. If I attack the Fighter, I don't get a penalty OR get whacked, but I don't get to attack the person I want to attack." It's 100% a choice. It's up to the DM whether he follows the mark or not- it's always a tactical decision. Sometimes the penalty of ignoring a mark are worth taking, sometimes they're not.

If a DM plays every monster as attacking the marker under any circumstances no matter what, then he's doing it wrong.
 

Yeah, and shield push = get whacked, pushed, and attack invalidated.

What's more, fighters are tricky.
Their enemies know about the powers they were attacked with, but do they know about your class features or feats?
I.e. do they know you have combat challenge, or shield push, or only that they've been marked?

In contrast to a paladin, where divine challenge is a power .. therefore the enemies know exactly what happens if they ignore it.
 

Fighters marking (hello Wow!) is one of my beefs with 4E.

Why should an intelligent oponent focus on Fighter if the strikers are the real menace...? What if, on the curse example, the villain is a cold calm folk that would smile when the Fighter curses his dad?

Nothing about marking forces the target to do anything. Its an incentive. WoW' (and several older games) taunt mechanic on the other hand does force the target, but that is hardly relevant to 4e.
 

Yes. Exactly. However, the DM knows what marking does, it just sees to slip the mind when in actual play. Hence, bloodied leaders and untouched defender. (Which I reckon for fiendish-aligned DMs is actually a GOOD game.)

If that's the case, you need to increase the damage/effect on your marks. Instead of "abusing reach weapons", you may want to switch to something like an Execution Axe. Basically, what you need to do is make it so that your DM never forgets that you're there.

My normal DM almost always follows my marks, and there's a reason for that...and it's because back when we ran the KotS module every time he disrespected my mark, the guy died. Didn't matter if it was a priest, vampire, undead or soldier, they died. Not because I was particularly amazing at damage (it was before I changed to a two-hander), but mostly because he was doing it when his monsters were bloodied. Doesn't matter though, because he learned his lesson. :devil:

Now granted, he still forgets sometimes...but an axe upside the head seems to help jog his memory. So if your DM is forgetting, then get a bigger weapon! I don't know as much about Wardens, but Fighters have a lot of feats that increase the power of their marks. One increases the mark from -2 to -3 to attack, potent challenge adds CON to damage, there's other feats to increase your to-hit for OA's, etc... Look into multiclassing Fighter or trying to find other feats that Wardens can take to make your mark deadlier. In time, the DM will either learn to pay attention, or you'll be killing his monsters faster. Either way, that Artificer in the back won't be taking as much damage. :)

Edit: Oh, and one last thing. Make sure you DM is remembering the -2 to attack as well. When he hits your artificer, say "Is that with the -2 to attack from my mark?". If you're playing with minis, make sure you have something to denote targets you've marked. A piece of paper, colored paperclip or even beer bottle caps (works good, especially when the Warden and the Fighter drink different brands!) work great.
 
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Having a single "this is how it works" isn't going to work. With 4e, you either embrace "it's a game, who cares how it works" or you embrace "there is no single right answer, there can be a myriad of ways to flavor the abilities, and it doesn't have to work the same way each time."

Precisely. I don't have a problem with " it just works". Because of all the possibilities that can come up that would make anyone trying to connect the effect to the imagined universe fumble about for something plausible we don't even try. Marking is an accepted combat rule and thats the end of it for us.
 


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