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<blockquote data-quote="MostlyDm" data-source="post: 6838516" data-attributes="member: 6788973"><p>I'm not so sure. Given that... depending on AD&D vs 5e, stat checks vs attack rolls, etc... Stats provide anywhere from 5% success per point (AD&D roll under stat resolution), to 5% per 2 points (everything in 5e), to considerably less than either of those (attack bonuses in AD&D).</p><p></p><p>The difference between, say, 11 and 15 Strength is not nearly enough to mark one character as a totally ineffective driver of action. </p><p></p><p></p><p>In your Tomb of Horrors play through summary you gave a series of examples of player skill. Spiking walls, recognizing a curse that inverted alignment and gender, etc. </p><p></p><p>None of these are especially tied to stats. Creative players, prepared players, genre savvy players... These are all ways player skill can help a character to survive, and are independent of stats. </p><p></p><p>Sure, better stats will make someone do better. That's tautologically true of course. But that also goes to infinity. If 18 strength is desirable, so is 18 in all stats, so is 30 in all stats, etc. </p><p></p><p>At some point one decides they are interested in playing the best game they can with the hand they have been dealt, and they find the fun in that. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I've very rarely, if ever, encountered conflict over who drives the fiction in any game I have played. </p><p></p><p>I've played with perhaps two GMs with even mild railroad tendencies, and frankly have not had any difficulty in doing one or both of the following:</p><p></p><p>1. Straightforwardly confronting the GM and providing advice on how to avoid railroads</p><p></p><p>2. Used my character, regardless of ability, to thwart the railroad.</p><p></p><p>The latter is much easier done outside the scope of ability scores anyway, and is primarily done via creative problem solving and Roleplaying out those character quirks you seem oddly derisive of. </p><p></p><p>Best example I recall was actually experienced by a friend of mine: obvious railroad pushing the players towards some epic world threatening quest in the forgotten realms. </p><p></p><p>PCs were far too low level for the job, from their perspective. So they took the upfront cash, donned a mysterious black cloak, and sat in the corner of an inn until they spotted a group of adventurers upon which they would impart the quest. </p><p></p><p>Funny reversal of expectation. GM didn't know how to handle it, really, and I think the game sort of collapsed. </p><p></p><p>I've never once personally experienced a game even close to that, though. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I just don't get this, I suppose. </p><p></p><p>What would a game even look like, where the players are not the drivers of action that happens to the PCs? Where PCs are comic relief in their own game?</p><p></p><p>Do you just mean passive players? I've seen them before, of course. But have always had active players to keep things moving, and failing that it's usually pretty easy as DM to prompt them into action. </p><p></p><p> I played a fair amount of 2e, but never a module. Should I go pick one up and read it to see this phenomenon for myself? Any suggestions?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="MostlyDm, post: 6838516, member: 6788973"] I'm not so sure. Given that... depending on AD&D vs 5e, stat checks vs attack rolls, etc... Stats provide anywhere from 5% success per point (AD&D roll under stat resolution), to 5% per 2 points (everything in 5e), to considerably less than either of those (attack bonuses in AD&D). The difference between, say, 11 and 15 Strength is not nearly enough to mark one character as a totally ineffective driver of action. In your Tomb of Horrors play through summary you gave a series of examples of player skill. Spiking walls, recognizing a curse that inverted alignment and gender, etc. None of these are especially tied to stats. Creative players, prepared players, genre savvy players... These are all ways player skill can help a character to survive, and are independent of stats. Sure, better stats will make someone do better. That's tautologically true of course. But that also goes to infinity. If 18 strength is desirable, so is 18 in all stats, so is 30 in all stats, etc. At some point one decides they are interested in playing the best game they can with the hand they have been dealt, and they find the fun in that. I've very rarely, if ever, encountered conflict over who drives the fiction in any game I have played. I've played with perhaps two GMs with even mild railroad tendencies, and frankly have not had any difficulty in doing one or both of the following: 1. Straightforwardly confronting the GM and providing advice on how to avoid railroads 2. Used my character, regardless of ability, to thwart the railroad. The latter is much easier done outside the scope of ability scores anyway, and is primarily done via creative problem solving and Roleplaying out those character quirks you seem oddly derisive of. Best example I recall was actually experienced by a friend of mine: obvious railroad pushing the players towards some epic world threatening quest in the forgotten realms. PCs were far too low level for the job, from their perspective. So they took the upfront cash, donned a mysterious black cloak, and sat in the corner of an inn until they spotted a group of adventurers upon which they would impart the quest. Funny reversal of expectation. GM didn't know how to handle it, really, and I think the game sort of collapsed. I've never once personally experienced a game even close to that, though. I just don't get this, I suppose. What would a game even look like, where the players are not the drivers of action that happens to the PCs? Where PCs are comic relief in their own game? Do you just mean passive players? I've seen them before, of course. But have always had active players to keep things moving, and failing that it's usually pretty easy as DM to prompt them into action. I played a fair amount of 2e, but never a module. Should I go pick one up and read it to see this phenomenon for myself? Any suggestions? [/QUOTE]
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