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Message: <blockquote data-quote="MostlyDm" data-source="post: 6839120" data-attributes="member: 6788973">Yeah, I'm not so sure the delineation is all that clear.  At least my own experiences with the various editions do not bear this out. Then and now, I call for die rolls when I'm not convinced the action in question is certain to succeed or fail.But even if rolls are required in most or even all attempts by the player to act, the player with superior skill, foresight, and creative problem solving skill has an edge.  He may not always succeed, but he will have many more chances to succeed than the player that lacks those attributes.Sure, I've heard stories.Oh, certainly! The GM was apparently a clown.  Though... I've never met the guy, just heard it secondhand, so it's also possible my friends were just being hardasses and refusing to engage in a perfectly cool game.  No clue, really.Yeah, that's lame.  I've encountered a few DMs with issues along these lines, but always pretty light.  They didn't come on hard with the railroad, just had a bit of initial resistance to some kinds of pushback.Though (despite what you say below) I have also definitely seen many cases of passive players that expect the DM to take this sort of approach, and prefer it.  They aren't interested in taking initiative in pushing the story in totally different directionsWait wait wait, what's wrong with this? Deception is off limits, to your view? Using players as catspaws is not okay?Is it also bad for players to deceive and manipulate the NPCs, or does this just go one way?  Why?What does this have to do with forcing the players to follow the GM's preconceived plan?  I've had evil NPCs attempt to deceive PCs countless times.  Sometimes they fall for it.  Sometimes they don't.  Sometimes the player sees what I'm about but doesn't think their character would, and they make themselves fall for it.In every case, a good time is had by all, and a fun and interesting story is created.  Subversion of expectations is a grand thing.  I like it when a DM successfully deceives me, with a villain that seems like a hero or a hero that seems like a villain.  I like it when a PC manages to kill a big villain out of the blue in a sudden anticlimactic alpha strike.I don't see how any of this relates to a DM forcing his agenda on players.Okay, that's helpful.  I might take a look at one of 'em.Well, passive players are a factor in how events are driven.I'm fortunate enough to mostly play with excellent players and GMs.  I play with some young new players, too, however, and player passivity is a common issue before they really get comfortable with the game. It's important not to just let them be led by the nose... one good way to really drive this home is to occasionally create a situation where the best outcomes only arise if you shuck off the "obvious" scenario presented by the GM.  Of course! No disagreements there.   Current major campaign of mine is largely about the PCs' mercenary company and fledgeling nation.  Most of my prep revolves around figuring out what their various accumulated friends and enemies are planning.I actually haven't run a Gygaxian crawl in years, though I am currently prepping to run one as a one-shot this weekend.</blockquote>

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