How does managing logistics hurt role playing?

[Quasqueton]

From reading many threads on this board it seems that so many things that I use/enforce in D&D supposedly detract from role playing.

Let's name a few I've seen lately:

Using minis and a battlemat

Tracking food, provisions, and dungeoneering equipment (torches, oil, etc.)

Tracking arrows/bolts

Counting weight for encumbrance


Amazing. So many people say that all this tracking and accounting prevents players and DMs from role playing. But, you know, I haven't seen a reduction in role playing when I make players watch the logistics of the game. I personally haven't found it more difficult to role play my character while adding up my equipment weight.

Actually, every game I've ever played in where the DM did not enforce this detail was much more simple hack-and-slash than any game I've run. I've seen players and DMs just fudge through battles without a common vision of the battlefield. I've seen players fire hundreds of arrows without ever spending money on replacements. I've seen players carrying five different weapons, all the rope they ever need, and a limitless supply of torches (and often no one actually carries a lit torch anyway -- the dungeon is just conviently lit up Diablo II style). And I've seen the rogue able to carry 5,000 gp in treasure all by himself.

I've always preferred the games where the PCs have to watch their resources. Running out of food in the wilderness is a plot device waiting to happen. Lighting up that last torch while two levels down in some forgotten dungeon makes for an exciting retreat for fear of getting caught in the dark. Having to leave some of that treasure behind because you didn't bring enough sacks, or can't afford to get weighed down in the next fight makes for follow-up adventure hooks.

Some of you folks who claim game logistics hinders role playing in the game, explain to me exactly how this happens to you.

Quasqueton

 

[Crothian]

For some people it just takaes what they feel is too much time that ends up distracting from the game.

 

[Corinth]

Most RPG campaigns are better when everyone pays attention to the details, especially as it concerns resource management, all around.

 

[zero skill LPB]

the theory of 'feast and famine'

'Bout 15 years ago I was a member of a gaming group that had an insightful player by the name of... oh, let's call him 'Bob'.

'Bob' had a theory about the games he ran. He called it 'feast and famine'. What it basically boiled down to was making sure the players knew *exactly* how much their characters had and how high on the hog they were living so when it all came crumbling down they were so very, very thankful for the rusty dagger and the 1/2 day's worth of moldy rations they managed to save.

More detail == more immersive == more betterer.

Er?

 

[Moonlion]

Short answer: time spent micromanaging is time not spent doing fun things like playing the game.

Medium answer: If the PCs are within travel distance of, heck, someone's farm, they can replenish virtually any mundane supply they're likely to use. Therefore, accounting for each and every torch and the like is complete tedium.

Long answer:

If a party runs out of torches, that's not adventure, that's just a damned hassle as the game stops to compensate for it. It's a petty annoyance, is what it is.

Besides which, once the party achieves a high enough level, things like torches become irrelevant, what with continual flame spells and the like.

I like the DMG's optional rule for character upkeep and d20 Modern's wealth system.

Challenges should account for the things the players have, not provide a challenge by taking them away. So, in your example of a party running out of torches and facing peril, that's not as fun or interesting or compelling as the dungeon having some unusual effect that suppresses, not eliminates, their torches in certain areas. If you're walking down a corridor and the torchlight dims for no reason, then becomes bright again at the end of the corridor, isn't that more interesting and fun that your DM looking over your character sheet and bellowing: "HA! You've run out of torches! I've out micromanaged you!" Please.

Adventure is in the grandness of the lives the PCs live, not in the nickel-and-diming of every day trivialities.

 

[jgbrowning]

If a party runs out of torches, that's not adventure, that's just a damned hassle as the game stops to compensate for it. It's a petty annoyance, is what it is.

Challenges should account for the things the players have, not provide a challenge by taking them away. So, in your example of a party running out of torches and facing peril, that's not as fun or interesting or compelling as the dungeon having some unusual effect that suppresses, not eliminates, their torches in certain areas. If you're walking down a corridor and the torchlight dims for no reason, then becomes bright again at the end of the corridor, isn't that more interesting and fun that your DM looking over your character sheet and bellowing: "HA! You've run out of torches! I've out micromanaged you!" Please.

I guess you've never seen Indiana Jones then?


joe b.

 

[Numion]

I guess you've never seen Indiana Jones then?


joe b.

I don't recall him spending a lot of time stocking up for adventuring.

 

[kengar]

I think it depends a lot on the group.

Like most gamers, my group is a bit of a mixed bag. When I'm not DM-ing, I'm usually a pretty RP/Storyteller kind of player. I like starting at 1st level, sweating how many days' food I've got with me, thinking about the cost of the sunrods v. torches, etc. because it would matter to my character.

In another thread, someone pointed out that keeping closer track of things like encumbrance and rations is also a good way to make characters like rangers and druids more useful. The character with 5 ranks in Handle Animal & Wilderness Lore who can get the mules across the narrow bridge and procure food in the wilderness are a great help to the party.

At higher levels, some of this goes away. Things like Rings of Sustenance, Quivers of Ehlonna, Bags of Holding, etc. remove these concerns. So I like having that time when my character is just starting out and surviving by planning and thinking out what he'll need, not just relying on some gimmick or spell.

That said, there are folks I play with who hate messing with the bookkeeping. They buy Rings of Sustenance as soon as possible. They don't ride a horse (thus slowing down the whole party) because they don't want to feed it. And so on. They are (typically) the powergamers and just want to get the next cool item or feat etc.

Everyone is different and what one person finds fun or immersive or interesting might bore another person to tears. It's just a question of finding what works for you & your group.

 

[Henry]

I don't recall him spending a lot of time stocking up for adventuring.

Yes, and there are two memorable scenes about that lack of restocking, which almost got him killed.

JGBrowning is specifically recalling Raiders of the lost ark. Poor Indy REALLY should have stocked up on torches...

My personal favorite is in the Temple of Doom, when Indy realizes that his revolver is empty, just when the sword-wielding Thuggee cultist shows up...

 

[Leopold]

This is why there is such a thing called "Party funds". I tell my players to divide the party into equal shares such as <total number of party members>+1. That "+1" goes into party slush fund to pay for all sorts of things. I have one of the players keeping tabs on that and they just say "Ok going into a dungeon for a while, I need 10 barrels of ale, 10 months of food, etc. A just deduct it from that. Once that is paid for i just ignore the small things like torches, rope, and so forth and take it they have enough for the 'common' things. Building a rope bridge? No, not enough for that. A couple hundred feet is enough, but i keep it within reason.

Examples like that allow gameplay to flow smoothly. Now if they want to equip an army that's a differnt story, that costs $$$ and I make SURE they pay for every spearhead, food ration, and tent! It ain't cheap to keep an army running!