How does mid- and high-level play pan out in the new edition?

[Lord Pendragon]

Heyo folks! Nice to be back and see some of the familiar faces.

So here I am, starting to play 4th-edition. My character is a few sessions into 2nd-level, so we're only just starting. I'm playing a warlock, and I'm finding the tactical combat appealing. Slides, then short teleportation, then AoE...I see a progression that allows for some expanding tactical challenges.

However, as I leaf through the later abilities, I start to realize that, beyond slides, short teleports, and AoE...the game does not seem to offer anything new at mid- and high-levels. Instead, the numbers just get slightly bigger. A slightly longer slide. A slightly longer short-range teleport (or short-range fly). A slightly wider AoE. A couple additional damage dice.

What I'm asking is, is there something I'm not seeing on the printed page? Do mid- and high-level combat offer different and varied tactical challenges not seen in the low-level game? Or is the game, while interesting at low-levels, lacking depth?

3e introduced a lot of new aspects in the mid- and high-level games. Aerial/3d combats. Swarms of summoned creatures. Vision control combat (Darkvision versus invisibility versus Illusion). Even cross-dimensional combat. All of these things requiring new and unique strategic responses.

Reading over the later 4e abilities, that seems to be missing.

Am I wrong?

 

[Eccles]

Having thought this myself, I'll be watching this thread with interest, though I haven't seen much of anyone playing at higher levels yet...

 

[ExploderWizard]

4E seems kind of bare bones right now. Even though there are rules that cover play to level 30 the depth of the content is somewhat lacking. A lot of the things that seem to be missing will undoubtably be released in future splatbooks. If WOTC wanted to sell the game piecemeal I think it would have been better to offer more depth for lower level play then release higher level content instead of a single ruleset that spreads itself too thin.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

We converted our Savage Tides campaign to 4E, starting at level 15 (originally level 11 in 3E).

It takes some time to get accustomed to higher level characters, but not remotely as long as it would take a 3E newbie to get accustomed to that level (or 10 lower ).

The tactics get more complex, and teamwork is probably the hardest to get right. We play the campaign approximately every 4 weeks, with different games in the other weeks. This always "resets" us a little bit, and so far the hardest combat is usually always the first, when we're still a little disorganized.

I noticed that I (as a Warlord) sometimes "hold" back with my encounter powers, typically because I wait till someone is wounded enough to use them. Coordinating with others to give them attack bonus when they need them (which my basic attack is good for) often affects the other rounds.

But so far, my experience is not deep enough to tell you how big the differences are. But I think they are there, because you have more and different powers. The Paragon features can also not be discounted for affecting the way the game is played, but that might be very dependent on the path you picked. (Sword Marshall certainly changes tactics a little bit - the +2 after a missed attack means that I often delay using my encounter or daily powers after a miss...)

 

[knightofround]

Mid-level play is more interesting than low-level imho, largely due to the extra powers. There's more interesting tactical combos you can create with 4 encounter powers instead of just 1. It's not so much about getting "wow this is a totally unique new spell" as it is "cool, now I can do more stuff". I think WotC did a good job expanding D&Ds "sweet spot"; now I think the ideal place to be is levels 10-20. Not that 1-10 is bad, its much better than low-level 3E, its just not as great as 4E's 10-20 imho.

High-level play is kinda lacking now though. I tried an epic campaign but in only lasted two sessions. It wasn't really satisfying because even though D&D is ostensibly level 1-30, there isn't much support for 20+ play yet. I'm sure they'll build on it ala Epic Level Handbook someday when peoples campaigns actually get up to that level.

 

[Prism]

We haven't played above 5th level as yet but I'm also interested to see how some of the effects you mention pan out. As far as I can tell the first real chance for full aerial combat is at 22nd level with a wizard mass fly spell and thats just for one combat a day (although at those levels a few abilities allow you to get back powers). I really can't see the summoning coming back in although to be honest I always found that summoned creatures were dispelled pretty quickly in 3e. In fact I AM looking forward to having no real dispel magic as I always found that after about 10th level that spell was pretty much standard fare to deal with nearly every combat - it got a bit dull!

One thing that seems have a greater effect the higher the level is a critical hit. With a number of feats being critical focused and with magic weapons and implements do so much extra damage at that level on a crit

I did always enjoy discovering the trick to winning the combat in 3e. Finding out the creatures weakness (DR or SR), working out what was illusionary and what was real, preparing in advance to fight your foes with the correct spell and item selection. I have a feeling that this is pretty much gone and its more about tactical combat even at higher levels

 

[Asmor]

I'm running a 10th level game right now (actually, 2 of the characters just hit 11 last night).

I haven't played it a whole lot at low levels, but I haven't played it a whole lot period. I'd say that all in all my experience is about 50/50 1st level and 10th level.

And that said, the game seems very, very similar at 10th level to what it did at 1st. The numbers are bigger, but the deltas (i.e. the difference between your attack rolls and the enemies' defenses, and vice versa) are the same.

The big difference seems to be greater variety and choice. At low levels you've got a serious dearth of powers, so you end up using your at-wills more frequently. Also, enemies tend to have fewer and less interesting powers. At 10th levels, the powers tend to do relatively the same amount of damage, but there are more debilitating effects.

So basically, in my limited experience, as the levels get higher, the combat does get more complicated, but that's largely due to more options and considerations.

 

[Evilhalfling]

I'm playing in a high level combat only pbp game. level 13.
there seem to be a lot more status conditions and characters can really go nova - rnd 1 cast bless, rnd 2 action point, minor action attack, 2 standard action attacks (~50 dmg) round 3 minor action heal, attack all enemies for 20 dmg (5 targets hit)

we are not great at teamwork or focusing fire, the tactics get alot more complicated. Then again we do have 8 pcs ..

 

[mattdm]

And that said, the game seems very, very similar at 10th level to what it did at 1st. The numbers are bigger, but the deltas (i.e. the difference between your attack rolls and the enemies' defenses, and vice versa) are the same.

This is clearly one of the design goals of 4E. I know it's hard to step back and look at it from a blank slate point of view, but is that really necessarily a big factor in the way the game "seems" in the absolute, rather than just in contrast with 3.x? I mean, shouldn't it be that the feel of the game comes from the variety and choice you mention, and the increased special effects, rather than from arithmetic?

That said, it's probably good for DMs to mix in the occasional much-lower- and much-higher-level opponent so you can feel how the math changes too.

 

[Victim]

I think that some things are deceptively similar. A slide 7 looks a lot like a slide 2 with a bigger number. But a little forced movement repositions someone within a fight, while the big one can throw people out of the fight entirely. When you can force a move greater than the target's speed and then move yourself, some interesting tactics open up.

Plus a group is a lot more likely to have some nasty wall or zone effects at that level. Higher level characters tend to have a lot more interlocking elements.