How does this class work exactly?

[tennyson]

Hi Everyone,

A PC in a game I run wants to create his 2nd level charcater with a level from the Half-Fiend template:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a

We play in FR, and I understand that the half-fiend is a available race (tiefling, from what I can see), but the template threw me for a loop. Does it seem a bit overpowered as it hits it's 4th level? How exactly does this template/class work, and is it something that I should think about leaving out of my low-level campaign?

Thanks!

ps. What is the ECL of a half-ogre out of Savage Species? (One of my other players wants to give it a try).

 

[AGGEMAM]

Common mistake. The tielfling is not a half-fiend but a planetouched. Also there is such a things as a fiendish character.

Half-fiend is the most powerful having a LA of +4.
Fiendish has a LA of +2.
And finally a tiefling has a LA of +1.

TIEFLING
Tiefling, 1st-Level Warrior
Medium Outsider (Native)

Hit Dice: 1d8+1 (5 hp)

Initiative: +1

Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)

Armor Class: 15 (+1 Dex, +3 studded leather, +1 light shield), touch 11, flat-footed 14

Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+2

Attack: Rapier +3 melee (1d6+1/18–20) or light crossbow +2 ranged (1d8/19–20)

Full Attack: Rapier +3 melee (1d6+1/18–20) or light crossbow +2 ranged (1d8/19–20)

Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.

Special Attacks: Darkness

Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., resistance to cold 5, electricity 5, and fire 5

Saves: Fort +3, Ref +1, Will –1

Abilities: Str 13, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 9, Cha 6

Skills: Bluff +4, Hide +5, Move Silently +1, Sleight of Hand +1

Feats: Weapon Focus (rapier)

Environment: Temperate plains

Organization: Solitary, pair, or gang (3–4)

Challenge Rating: 1/2

Treasure: Standard

Alignment: Usually evil (any)

Advancement: By character class

Level Adjustment: +1

Many tieflings are indistinguishable from humans. Others have small horns, pointed teeth, red eyes, a whiff of brimstone about them, or even cloven feet. No two tieflings are the same.

Combat
Tieflings are sneaky, subtle, and generally conniving. They prefer to strike from ambush and usually avoid a fair fight if they can.

Darkness (Sp): A tiefling can use darkness once per day (caster level equal to class levels).

Skills: A tiefling has a +2 racial bonus on Bluff and Hide checks.

The tiefling warrior presented here had the following ability scores before racial adjustments: Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8.

Tieflings as Characters
Tiefling characters possess the following racial traits.

— +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, –2 Charisma.

—Medium size.

—A tiefling’s base land speed is 30 feet.

—Darkvision out to 60 feet.

—Racial Skills: Tieflings have a +2 racial bonus on Bluff and Hide checks.

—Racial Feats: A tiefling gains feats according to its class levels.

—Special Attacks (see above): Darkness.

—Special Qualities (see above): Resistance to cold 5, electricity 5, and fire 5.

—Automatic Languages: Common, Infernal. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, Orc.

—Favored Class: Rogue.

—Level adjustment +1.

 

[the Jester]

Just to clarify- it sounds like you're a little confused about how to use more powerful races- you add the LA (level adjustment) to the character's HD to figure out their effective character level (ECL). So for instance, a half-fiendish halfling rogue 3 counts as a level 7 character.

 

[FrankTrollman]

Just to clarify- it sounds like you're a little confused about how to use more powerful races- you add the LA (level adjustment) to the character's HD to figure out their effective character level (ECL). So for instance, a half-fiendish halfling rogue 3 counts as a level 7 character.

Which means that this is the first time I've ever heard someone claim that Half Fiends were powerful. When they get their 4th HD they are 8th level characters. They are expected to face actual demons as enemies and they still have few enough hit points that an Orcish Warrior could take them out at any time with a lucky greataxe hit.

The ability to get 2nd level spells as bonuses when going up to 4th level is great - but having to play in an 8th level game while doing so just sucks. It's like being a Mystic Theurge except you don't get hit points, saves, or skill ranks.

P.S.: Ogres from Savage Species are wildly underpowered - you are expected to pay 6 levels to be a CR 3 monster - it's completely not worth it.

-Frank

 

[the Jester]

ECL and CR are based on entirely different things, though. For CR it's how tough to kill in a single fight you are. For ECL it's how much 'oomph' you have in a campaign. The two are wildly different, except of course in games that are pretty much all combat. Look at something like a doppleganger or mind flayer, for example; a mind flayer is ECL 15 but only CR 8, and a doppleganger is CR 3 but ECL 7.

It isn't that a half-fiend is necessarily so much more powerful than, say, a human. It's that it gains abilities that are extremely useful in non-combat situations, such as a fly speed (you'll notice how drastically flying was toned down in 3.5, such as the fly spell's duration). The fact that it has natural weapons that count as magic for penetrating DR doesn't make it 'stronger' in a fight- it doesn't inflict any more damage or anything- but it does let it avoid a lot of issues with being disarmed, etc.

 

[spunky_mutters]

P.S.: Ogres from Savage Species are wildly underpowered - you are expected to pay 6 levels to be a CR 3 monster - it's completely not worth it.

-Frank

I think that was half-ogres he was asking about. They're +1 ECL, and a whole different ballgame. I wouldn't recommend allowing them for a low-level game. I think things even out a bit as the levels increase, but a half-ogre can dominate play at low-levels.

 

[sithramir]

Which means that this is the first time I've ever heard someone claim that Half Fiends were powerful. When they get their 4th HD they are 8th level characters. They are expected to face actual demons as enemies and they still have few enough hit points that an Orcish Warrior could take them out at any time with a lucky greataxe hit.

The ability to get 2nd level spells as bonuses when going up to 4th level is great - but having to play in an 8th level game while doing so just sucks. It's like being a Mystic Theurge except you don't get hit points, saves, or skill ranks.

P.S.: Ogres from Savage Species are wildly underpowered - you are expected to pay 6 levels to be a CR 3 monster - it's completely not worth it.

-Frank

Can I ask what the heck this is talking about? They don't get any HD and wouldn't be considered 8th level characters unless they were a 4th level half-fiend.

Why are they expected to face demons? Yes an orc warrior could take them out with a power attack. They gain DR to things but not to hugely powerful blows which is pretty much the best way to beat them.

You're forgetting the fact that a wizard of same level is just as suspect to that orc's attacks

 

[melkoriii]

looks powerful to me but Im not into the Fiendish tyep PCs.

Also remember that thi is treated as a Monster Class and you have to take all monster class lvls before you can take your first PC class lvl.

So you cant take half-Fiend at 2nd lvl. you have to take all lvls from 1-4 then you can take lvl 1 PC class.

 

[Nail]

I know this has been hinted at, but it has not been explicitly spelled out:

Your ECL (Equivalent Character Level) is = Monster HD + LA,
as long as the monster HD is greater than (or equal to) 1.

So the lowest level half-fiend you could play would be (with a 1 HD race): 1 (HD) + 4 (LA) = 5 ECL.

 

[tennyson]

looks powerful to me but Im not into the Fiendish tyep PCs.

Also remember that thi is treated as a Monster Class and you have to take all monster class lvls before you can take your first PC class lvl.

So you cant take half-Fiend at 2nd lvl. you have to take all lvls from 1-4 then you can take lvl 1 PC class.

This answered my quesiton exactly! Thanks for all of your replies!