How does Titan Fighting work when fighting giants?

[AuraSeer]

[...]I'm all for the interpretation that says "all dodge bonuses stack".

That would be fine, if the example character had multiple dodge bonuses. But he doesn't. He has only one: the +4 dodge bonus granted by his race. Titan Fighting only loosens the requirements for its use.

In other words, every dwarf has this "+4 against giants" gizmo that he carries around in his pocket for use against giants. The feat lets him use that existing gizmo in more situations, but it does not give him a whole new gizmo to carry.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I'm pretty sure you'd get +8 Dodge to AC.

Point 1: Dodge bonuses explicitly stack.

Point 2: The feat seems to change the amount of the bonus you would normally recieve from the Dodge feat. Specifically, it changes it from +1 to +(Racial), which can vary by race.

So, when examining a target without the above feat:

1. Is it the target of your Dodge feat?
1a. If yes, then you get +1 Dodge AC against it.
2. Is it a giant?
2a. If yes, then you get +4 Dodge AC against it.

Total Max Possible Bonus: +5

With the feat, but not stacking:
1. Is it the target of your Dodge feat?
1a. If yes, then is it bigger than you?
1b. If yes, then you get +4 Dodge AC against it.
2. Is it a giant?
2a. If yes, then is it the target of your Dodge bonus?
2b. If yes, then +0 Dodge AC against it.
2c. If no, then +4 Dodge AC against it.

Total Max Possible Bonus: +4

With the feat, stacking:
1. Is it the target of your Dodge feat?
1a. If yes, then is it bigger than you?
1b. If yes, then you get +4 Dodge AC against it.
2. Is it a giant?
2a. If yes, then +4 Dodge AC against it.

Total Max Possible Bonus: +8

It makes no sense to me that someone who takes a feat is worse off than someone who does not (basic Dodge (+1) and Racial (+4) vs. Non-stacking Dodge (+4) and Racial (+4)).

Therefore, I believe it must be +8 against giants who are at least one size category larger than you.

 

[AuraSeer]

It makes no sense to me that someone who takes a feat is worse off than someone who does not (basic Dodge (+1) and Racial (+4) vs. Non-stacking Dodge (+4) and Racial (+4)).

Strictly as written, it seems that the feat does give only a +4 bonus, and effectively prevents the use of Dodge against giants. I agree with you that the latter is bad, but I think the designer just overlooked that effect, and I disagree with your fix.

Rather than create a ruling that doesn't fit the feat text, I would instead add a line stating that the feat has no effect if the Ddoge target is of the giant type. That neatly eliminates the penalty in the corner case, without making the feat unbalancingly strong.

 

[Abisashi]

What's the flavor text on the feat? That might give us insight into the intent of the designer.

 

[Endur]

The more I think about this, the more I'm inclined to agree that Titan Fighting does increase the bonus granted by the dodge feat to +4.

a. A dwarf/gnome vs. a dodge target their size. +1 dodge bonus
b. A dwarf/gnome vs. a dodge target larger than them, but not a giant. +4 dodge bonus
c. A dwarf/gnome vs. any giant, but not their dodge target: +4 dodge bonus
d. A dwarf/gnome vs. a dodge target larger than them and a giant. +8 dodge bonus.

Remember, the dodge feat only applies to a single opponent and you had to specify on your round. Original dodge feat bonus is +1. A second feat raises that bonus to +4, but only for enemies larger than you.

Seems balanced to me. (The dodge feat is one of the wimpiest feats in the PHB, so any boost is a good thing. The 3.5 team was going to raise it to +1 AC against everyone, but then decided not to for unknown reasons).

 

[AuraSeer]

Remember, the dodge feat only applies to a single opponent and you had to specify on your round. Original dodge feat bonus is +1. A second feat raises that bonus to +4, but only for enemies larger than you.

That's true either way you interpret it. The bonus goes up to +4 for any Dodge target of approproate size, and that's the designer's clear intent.

What's less clear is whether that is a reuse of the existing racial +4, or a whole new bonus that can be stacked. I don't think it balanced when a dwarf Ftr1 could easily manage AC 29 against giants (10 + 8 armor + 2 shield + 1 Dex + 8 dodge). Of course the bonus gets less important as level increases, but the feat prereqs don't include BAB or anything else level-dependent.

 

[Crothian]

Well, according to pg 21 in the DMG Dodge bonuses do stack, so I don't really see why they would not stack here.

 

[AuraSeer]

Well, according to pg 21 in the DMG Dodge bonuses do stack, so I don't really see why they would not stack here.

If the feat grants a new bonus, then yes, they stack. But if the feat just takes the existing bonus and loosens its restriction, then it's only one bonus and there's nothing to stack it with.

Maybe I need to explain myself in a different way.

Say we've got this dwarf. He carries around a coupon that says "Good for +4 dodge bonus. Applies to creatures of the giant type." Every dwarf is issued his coupon at birth, and it's impossible to lose. In combat, whenever a giant attacks the holder of such a coupon, its power takes effect and grants the +4 bonus.

Now imagine a dwarf who takes Titan Fighting. There are two possible interpretations of that feat.

One interpretation says that the dwarf is issued an entirely new coupon. Its text says, "Good for +4 dodge bonus. Applies to any larger creature whom bearer is Dodging." Since it's a separate coupon, it grants a separate dodge bonus, so it can stack with the original. I do not think this is correct.

IMO, the feat just changes the text on the coupon the dwarf already owns. Its restriction line is altered to say, "Applies to creatures of the giant type, AND to any larger creature whom bearer is Dodging." The dwarf can now use the coupon in many more situations, but it's still only one coupon, so it only grants one bonus and cannot stack with itself.

Am I making sense yet?

 

[Crothian]

I see what your saying, but it seems to be using the number of the racial dodge bonus to me and not actually the bonus.

 

[Corlon]

I agree with aura seer, and I'd say that if you applied your dodge bonus to the giant, then it'd get you a net bonus of +5 (+4 for normal, +1 for dodge). Against anything medium or smaller, your dodge grants +1 as normal, and against anyone large or larger, it grants you the +4 bonus.