How does tithing work?

[Jon_Dahl]

You make good points with the fact that the church wouldn't want to hinder their paladins and the church should also provide something in exchange on tithing. But it seems that there is no real consensus on what counts in tithing and what does not.

Let me give you a more solid example:
Our group received a chain armor +1 of moderate fortification, worth 16,000+ gp. So far they have delayed diviving the loot and the armor is collectively owned by the whole group. No one wears it.
Now that the time of tithing has come, how should I roleplay the high cleric who asks for a tithe?

The religion is NG. However the high cleric is not keen with "fighting men" and gladly docks any extra gp to support the peasants and people in living poverty.

 

[billd91]

Let me give you a more solid example:
Our group received a chain armor +1 of moderate fortification, worth 16,000+ gp. So far they have delayed diviving the loot and the armor is collectively owned by the whole group. No one wears it.
Now that the time of tithing has come, how should I roleplay the high cleric who asks for a tithe?

Make it easy on yourself and your player and stick to cash, gems, jewelry, and anything else actually being converted to cash or traded as commerce.

 

[Janx]

You make good points with the fact that the church wouldn't want to hinder their paladins and the church should also provide something in exchange on tithing. But it seems that there is no real consensus on what counts in tithing and what does not.

Let me give you a more solid example:
Our group received a chain armor +1 of moderate fortification, worth 16,000+ gp. So far they have delayed diviving the loot and the armor is collectively owned by the whole group. No one wears it.
Now that the time of tithing has come, how should I roleplay the high cleric who asks for a tithe?

The religion is NG. However the high cleric is not keen with "fighting men" and gladly docks any extra gp to support the peasants and people in living poverty.

I would keep it simple like billd91 said and just count money.

Additionally, you may have made the situation more complicated by putting the priest in an antagonistic stance. I recommend shifting him a bit.

The church can't just force people to pay, and it can't do an audit to verify you paid the right amount. But a priest knows people and he knows the peasants don't put much in because they don't have much money. nobles make sizable contributions, because he and they know they have money.

Nobles expect better treatment in the church, and they get it because they put in sizable amounts. Furthermore, nobles don't pay up when the tray gets passed around. They pay up in the private office of the church officials or at big dinners with large cardboard checks being passed over. There's higher security involved and more direct recognition of "this is me, rich guy giving you a large donation. We both know where this money came from and who it went to."


Adventurers don't put much in because they're stingy, outsiders, or cash strapped, despite carrying a crapton worth of gear. The priest probably looks down on those types because they don't contribute, but they're always coming in for healings. So play it that way. If the party lives up to that expectation, the priest keeps his opinion of them.

If the party walks in and drops off a 100GP bag of coin and says, thanks for all your help, we hope this will help the community, then the priest has a reconsideration moment about this particular group of adventurers.

 

[renau1g]

One thing about the 10% of items, I'd say that it's only 10% of what you could get for selling it (which is usually far less than the book value)

 

[dogoftheunderworld]

10% gross of any cash or cash-equivilent income (including items sold for cash)
All Artwork, Jewlery, Magic Items (armor, weapons, misc, etc) that are part of the Paladins "take" should be donated directly to the church, and the paladin should ask (and pray) that he might borrow them for his next triumphant adventure.

- per my new book, "The Paladin's Tax Code"

 

[Artur Hawkwing]

Had this discussion with a GM once. His take was that the Magic Items obtained while on missions for the Church were, through the Paladin as it's agent, in the possession of the Church and therefore not subject to a 10% tithe, as it was at the Church's choice that the Paladin had the items. Most Paladins are supplied, through some manner or another, by their Church or God. However, any gear sold by the party, or the paladin when unloading mundane items, should have 10% of the Paladin's take earmarked as tithe immediately, with the tithe paid at the first available opportunity. Also, he reasoned, the reason for the 10% to be so necessary was for the church's operations, which having a Sword of Giantslaying or something of that like wouldn't help with, aside from its coin value. Such an item serves the Church far better in possession of one of its trusted agents, though at any point the Church might require the item, it has the right to demand the item from the Paladin, who has no recourse by his honor but to give the item over at the soonest opportunity.

 

[Janx]

10% gross of any cash or cash-equivilent income (including items sold for cash)
All Artwork, Jewlery, Magic Items (armor, weapons, misc, etc) that are part of the Paladins "take" should be donated directly to the church, and the paladin should ask (and pray) that he might borrow them for his next triumphant adventure.

- per my new book, "The Paladin's Tax Code"

Your logic is sound, but the Paladin might have legal grounds to object on the basis that he is not necessarily an employee or vassal of the church, but a highly motivated follower who donates his time and resources to church causes.

From a player standpoint, it may be total bullcrap to accept that my Paladin PC doesn't actually own or get to keep the gear he finds, but the other players do.

Furthermore, it sets a precedent that the Paladin is more a slave of the church than an individual with personal property rights. Which is a concept even cavemen had of "this club is mine!" and "this woman is mine!" which puts it into common law acceptance.

The church's legal claim to treasure/items may only be extended in the same way that any employer of a mission may have over salvage rights. If the Paladin found or bought a magic sword with his own money, it is his sword. If the church gave him the money or the sword, it is the church's sword. If the church financed the misssion to explore the dungeon, they may have salvage rights to any loot found. If they did not commision, fund or supply the quest, they have no such rights to the loot.

Therefore, the church only has such rights to tithing as can be expected from any parishoner/church member, which is an honest donation from each member based on a portion of their wealth.

I would steer clear of ruling the Paladin PC has less property rights than other PCs because the class just doesn't compensate enough for it and there is no indication that the Paladin is specifically an employee/vassal of the church, merely a zealous volunteer blessed by his deity. The church should not abuse that except as some plot point for the paladin to solve. Because it puts an honerous meta-game tax on one PC that nobody else has to put up with. It's bad enough he has to hand in 10% of his cash as part of the class design.

 

[Deset Gled]

Basic procedure for tithing:

1. The group splits of treasure normally. Items go to the person most likely to use them; coins, fungible valuables, and unusable items are split so that all players get approximately equal amounts after the value (including used items) is summed up.

2. The Paladin determines which items will be used for the pursuit of further income/adventuring, and sets these aside.

3. The Paladin then determines the net value of all coins and unused items he has received. He notes this value, and gives 10% of it to the church at the next appropriate time. For magic items, artwork, etc, he notes the sale value of the item (that is, the amount he would get for selling the item, not the amount he would pay for the item). He may choose to donate items to the church directly, or may opt to sell them first.

4. Any time the Paladin sells an item he had previously used for adventuring purposes, he notes 10% of the money received in the sale, and pays it to the church. That is, all items exempted per Clause 2 above are taxed when they are sold (but not when they are received). Likewise, items that are shared by the group are exempted from the income calculation at the time they are received, but must be accounted for if they are ever sold or split amongst the adventurers. Also, this means that consumable items found and used by the Paladin in the course of adventuring will not be tithed on (since they do not result in a net income), but consumable items sold will be included in the tithe.

 

[Jon_Dahl]

[MENTION=8835]Janx[/MENTION]

Good points but it might be that we have some different perspectives here.
Describing the high priest as antagonistic is fair, but as a cleric of the deity of healing I feel that he is a bit alienated from the people who actively fight for the cause. I'd like to have the good-aligned martial deities as the ones who really support and foster paladins. The player made a choice of selecting a bit soft deity for his paladin so I'd like that to be reflected in the game. So IMO he's not so much as antagonistic as he is soft; too soft perhaps for the more hard-line and no-nonsense paladin.

Also I'd like to note that tithing isn't (a total) waste of money in my game. Normally clergies don't cast spells just for anyone. And the high-level spells are closely guarded. This paladin is actually the first character to have an option of buying divine magic and we've been playing since 2009. If he has success and tithes well, he might actually receive custom-made magical items from his clergy, with a significantly reduced price.

I feel more... annoyed I could say... with the fact that tithing in hard because one magical item can be so expensive that paying 10% of its value can bring any character to its knees. That's something that would be nice resolve while keeping both verisimilitude and playability.

 

[Janx]

Here's one different idea for [MENTION=89822]Jon_Dahl[/MENTION]

look at the wealth by level table and calculate the difference between each level. Then charge 10% of that as a leveling up fee, explained as some sort of money drive the paladin is working on for the church.

At that point, the PC isn't looking at it as a tax on his existing goods/earnings, he's seeing it as a money collection FOR his church that he's working on.