How effective is grappling?

[Herzog]

I would think that, even if it were technically allowed because it is 'sort of' a weapon, I would qualify it as a 'heavy' weapon (i.e.: not light) which would disallow Weapon Finesse anyway.

There is already a way to use Dex in (defensive) grappling: Escape Artist.

 

[Tilenas]

I would think that, even if it were technically allowed because it is 'sort of' a weapon, I would qualify it as a 'heavy' weapon (i.e.: not light) which would disallow Weapon Finesse anyway.

There is already a way to use Dex in (defensive) grappling: Escape Artist.

Okay, but why only use it for defence? As I see it, grappling, if considered a weapon, can be "light" for this purpose. It really depends on how you picture it. You can see it as wrestling or judo: one relies more on force, the other on agility. For a monk who is all martial-artsy, I'd have no problem allowing him to use Dex for grappling, provided he has weapon finesse.

 

[Theroc]

Okay, but why only use it for defence? As I see it, grappling, if considered a weapon, can be "light" for this purpose. It really depends on how you picture it. You can see it as wrestling or judo: one relies more on force, the other on agility. For a monk who is all martial-artsy, I'd have no problem allowing him to use Dex for grappling, provided he has weapon finesse.

Because you're using your weight to pin/grapple? Manuevering around is not very useful unless you can find a good place to exert your weight. Not being a number cruncher to this extent, I can't tell you if there is a balance concern there.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I would think that, even if it were technically allowed because it is 'sort of' a weapon, I would qualify it as a 'heavy' weapon (i.e.: not light) which would disallow Weapon Finesse anyway.

There is already a way to use Dex in (defensive) grappling: Escape Artist.[/QUOTE]

Why would it be a heavy weapon? That makes no sense. Unarmed is light, melee touch is light...spiked freaking chain is "light"...

There is already a way to use Dex in (defensive) grappling: Escape Artist.

No there isn't! Escape Artist...

1) Does not factor BAB in at all, you need to spend skill points each level to keep it up to snuff, martial prowess means nothing for this "technique wrestler"

2) Is a STANDARD action. Grapple replaces a melee attack. Do I really need to explain why the former is infinitely inferior to the latter?

3) Most damning of all (so much so I houserule it and refuse to ever even waste one rank in this garbage skill in games where the DM doesn't do likewise), by RAW you cannot even use it to AVOID being grappled. You can only use it to escape after already becoming grappled/pinned/constricted/dinner!

Escape Artist is a trap, it's not a real option. It's certainly not an option for any martial class except for the monk, who blows at everything already anyway. What I would like, and I assume Tilenas was looking for was something for martially inclined (ie, Fighters, Barbarians, Rangers, etc...) characters to dex-grapple with. Not just defensive and not just something available to classes that can't wrestle their way out of a paper bag.