How EPIC is Epic-Level Handbook?

[Oni]

Re: Bah it's crap

Epic Book=Crap on a stick

Wonder if he says that if Regdar is used as an example?

 

[mmadsen]

IMO, a lot of the AD&D + 3E D&D high-powered supplements from Wizards (and formerly TSR) have focused mostly on making uber PCs. Basically, characters who can dungeon crawl to the n-th degree.

Well said.

One notable exception was the supplement for Dark Sun, "Dragon Kings." In the intro to the book, the author points out that they truly tried to give the text an epic feel. Also, the wanted to make PCs who were, literally, able to change the face of the planet. To this end, a lot of the high level spells can literally change the landscape and augment (or destroy) armies. Many of these spells required complicated rituals that took days to complete.

Sounds wonderful. Available as an SRD?

IMO, these spells have a truly epic feel, rather than simply "Improved Meteor Swarm."

One thing missing from D&D is the evil witch who blankets a nation in perpetual winter, or the dark overlord who brings shadow and darkness, etc. Instead we have the really tough guy at the bottom of the series of caves.

 

[barsoomcore]

One thing missing from D&D is the evil witch who blankets a nation in perpetual winter, or the dark overlord who brings shadow and darkness, etc. Instead we have the really tough guy at the bottom of the series of caves.

Exactly! I mean, I have a lich-emperor who's not quite figured out that the ancestral enemies of his people are extinct, and is out to destroy the world in order to get at them, a vampire/sorceress known as the Demon Goddess (thanks, SB) who's trying to make up for having ruled a great empire with a hand so heavy the land itself is cursed (oh, and she's also fallen madly in love with one of the PCs and keeps following her (oh, and she's a lesbian. Duh.) around trying to seduce her), a half-mechanical wizard who's in love with the Demon Goddess (actually he created her and she broke free of his control, yada yada yada), an ancient sorceress-queen who was banished to the Dream Worlds and is now coming back, having acquired the power to control the dreams of everyone in the world, blah blah blah. "Improved Improved Initiative" just isn't going to cut it.

"Dragon Kings", huh? I'll have a look around...

 

[jollyninja]

i think dieties and demigods may be closer to the epic scale that you are looking for then the ELH. the beauty of demigods is that they can do whatever the dm wants them to. they trancend mortal restrictions (at least if they do not, the book will really suck) where i think the ELH is meant to create really powerful mortals. think of the difference between elminster (really old man with no diefic aspirations) and raistlin (young man with the potential to kill all the gods and people of his world and become godking of a dead world) and i think you will see the possible difference between the two books. epic in my theory means powerful mortal ie pumped up fighters and beter conventionaly impressive wizards (elminster: the non miracle worker who likes to call himself a "scribe"). if true power is wanted (raistlin: potential killer of all mortals and dieties on his planet), dieties and demigods will probably provide better inspiration if not mechanics.

i hope this does not turn into a raistlin vs elminster debate, if you want to do that one please start a new thread and let this one stay itself.

 

[mmadsen]

Most if not all of these spells could be duplicated by existing spells with sufficient levels of Meta Magic, which I think will be covered in the epic level book.

I agree that theoretically that's the case, but practically, how do you Raise Nation under the current rules? Or Enchant Armaments?

 

[mmadsen]

Exactly! I mean, I have a lich-emperor who's not quite figured out that the ancestral enemies of his people are extinct, and is out to destroy the world in order to get at them, a vampire/sorceress known as the Demon Goddess (thanks, SB) who's trying to make up for having ruled a great empire with a hand so heavy the land itself is cursed (oh, and she's also fallen madly in love with one of the PCs and keeps following her (oh, and she's a lesbian. Duh.) around trying to seduce her), a half-mechanical wizard who's in love with the Demon Goddess (actually he created her and she broke free of his control, yada yada yada), an ancient sorceress-queen who was banished to the Dream Worlds and is now coming back, having acquired the power to control the dreams of everyone in the world, blah blah blah.

I love your campaign background, barsoomcore. Love it. (I still don't understand why you call it "Barsoom", but I love it...)

"Improved Improved Initiative" just isn't going to cut it.

Hehehe. So true. So true.

"Dragon Kings", huh? I'll have a look around...

Am I the only one who can't find anything (ESD or otherwise) in WotC's online shop using their search tool?

 

[gfunk]

I purchased my copy of Dragon Kings off of Ebay for ~$15. I would suggest looking there.

 

[Claude Raines]

I purchased my copy of Dragon Kings off of Ebay for ~$15. I would suggest looking there.

The spells can also be found in the fourth volume of the Wizard's Spell Compendium. Amazon.com says they have 5 left in stock.

 

[mmadsen]

By going through athas.org, I was able to find WotC's Dragon Kings ESD page. It says:

Only the most powerful characters are destined to rule Athas. Warriors with vast armies of followers campaign for glory; rogues become masters of illusory magic to further their deadly schemes; spellcasters who can also master psionics open whole new tomes of magic available only to them - the most powerful spells ever! And not only do they gain greater magic, the spellcasters take on entirely new forms when they advance beyond 20th level - clerics can attain elemental form; preservers mutate into magnificent avangions; defilers can actually transform into dragons themselves!

Learn of these advanced beings, the new magical spells available to them, plus new psionic devotions and organizations, military vehicles and army lists, and more, all within the pages of Dragon Kings!

It sounds like it's just asking to be transformed into a list of Epic Feats and Prestige Classes.

 

[barsoomcore]

I love your campaign background, barsoomcore. Love it. (I still don't understand why you call it "Barsoom", but I love it...)

Hey, thanks. I learned the, "Wow, That's Totally Lame" rule years ago.

What, you ask, is the "Wow, That's Totally Lame" rule?

The "Wow, That's Totally Lame" rule says that every time you as the DM come up with an idea and say to yourself, "Wow, that's totally lame," you have just had a brilliant idea and including it in your campaign will bring you acclaim and admiration from all your players.

Here's a quick version of how I came up with Barsoom:

Step One -- Think Up Campaign Title

The only worldname in my head is Barsoom. Wow, that's totally lame.

Step Two -- Decide On Campaign Concept

Dinosaurs and flintlock pistols. Wow, that's totally lame.

Step Three -- Create Bad Guy

Hottie lesbian vampire sorceress. Wow, that's totally lame.

My players have gone on record that they think the name is cool, they think dinosaurs and flintlocks are cool, and they LOVE the lesbian vampire angle. So if it makes me wince, it's probably gaming gold.

And now you know why I call it Barsoom