How fast could you build a cathedral at 18th level?

[HandofMystra]

In the real world, cathedrals generally took 15-100+ years to build, with long stoppages when their patrons ran out of money.
Lyre of Building

If the proper chords are struck, a single use of this lyre negates any attacks made against all inanimate construction (walls, roof, floor, and so on) within 300 feet. This includes the effects of a horn of blasting, a disintegrate spell, or an attack from a ram or similar siege weapon. The lyre can be used in this way once per day, with the protection lasting for 30 minutes.
The lyre is also useful with respect to building. Once a week its strings can be strummed so as to produce chords that magically construct buildings, mines, tunnels, ditches, or whatever. The effect produced in but 30 minutes of playing is equal to the work of 100 humans laboring for three days. Each hour after the first, a character playing the lyre must make a DC 18 Perform (string instruments) check. If it fails, she must stop and cannot play the lyre again for this purpose until a week has passed.
Faint transmutation; CL 6th; Craft Wondrous Item, fabricate; Price 13,000 gp; Weight 5 lb.

I had been wondering if there were a magic item that would do mining rather than laborers. The Lyre of Building costs 433 times as much a the labor cost saved from one use. This makes me think that a mine owner would rather higher the labor than obtain an expensive item to do the work (I was trying to think about how the mines in Idylls of the Rat King should really looks. The maps do not look like any silver mine made in the European Middle Ages).

 

[roguerouge]

For an arcane caster, assuming that you aren't going to be working on more than one thing at a time, cast moment of prescience daily to give yourself a stunning mystical vision of how the completed cathedral should be (+18 to the relevant skill check), then take 10.

Many of these skills are trained-only, thus requiring ranks in them to be able to use them.

Advisors don't work either: I could have someone explain (insert complicated profession here) till they were blue in the face, but I still wouldn't be able to make informed decisions about it without training and experience combined. The divine called creature, not you, would be designing the cathedral. Advisors provide Aid Another bonuses or circumstance bonuses. They don't substitute for a complete lack of ranks in the skill.

Without actual training, you know only common knowledge (DC 10 or lower)

 

[Umbran]

The real adventure hook here, of course, isn't that you're building a cathedral. It's that someone or something already claims the site that the cathedral is to be built on...

Or claims the materials you're building it from...

Or claims the workforce you're building it with...

Or hates the deity you're building it for...

There are many possibilities.

I like the first, myself. What happens when you accidentally start mining the dwarven sacred stone to build your cathedral?

 

[Noumenon]

My keyboard is out so I'm typing w/ mouse but thanks and I'll reply later!

 

[delericho]

The problem with all of these assumptions is that they're based on the idea that the spell produces the kind of quality you look for in a cathedral.

This is a very good point, and the argument I would use if I wanted to avoid the PCs using magic to "short circuit" the Skill Challenge. Certainly, in the case of divine magic, I can certainly see Pelor being less than enchanted at his high priest setting out to build a monument to his greatness... and then calling on him to do it all!

In addition, you're assuming that anyone can create a cathedral. Don't. It takes years of training and work on smaller buildings for an architect to be ready to build a major building.

In this case, though, I don't agree. While in the real world it is certainly true that you really need experts and specialists for this sort of thing, carrying this over to the game would essentially turn the "build a cathedral" challenge into "go hire the NPC expert". PCs simply aren't going to have the relevant expertise - even if they have the skill ranks (unlikely), they're not going to have built large numbers of small buildings.

Better for the game, IMO, to assume that the PCs are "a cut above", and are exceptional renaissance men, and so are able to do the job themselves (with appropriate help of course). Is it realistic? Of course not. But I would argue it makes for a more fun experience for all involved, and so is the way to go.

YMMV, of course.

 

[Relique du Madde]

Certainly, in the case of divine magic, I can certainly see Pelor being less than enchanted at his high priest setting out to build a monument to his greatness... and then calling on him to do it all!

That's why you outsource all the design jobs to the local High Elves who are worshipers of the God of Art and the local Dwave clan who worship the god of Architecture. Have them build the cathedral with the understanding that they'll get a side chapel devoted to their gods*.


* He shouldn't mind considering Deities and Demigods also had Pelor listed as a god of community. However, if he would then upon completion, I'd just slaughter the workers in his name.

 

[Dausuul]

Many of these skills are trained-only, thus requiring ranks in them to be able to use them.

Where by "many" you mean "three." And frankly, the idea that you'd need a DC 30 Knowledge (History) check is preposterous. Knowledge (Religion), maybe - though DC 30 seems rather high - and Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) certainly... so drop one rank in each of those two and let magic take care of the rest.

(Also: Appraise? Why on God's green earth would you need Appraise? Even if you were building the cathedral the old-fashioned way, Appraise would have very little application, certainly not enough to require a DC 30 check.)

Advisors don't work either: I could have someone explain (insert complicated profession here) till they were blue in the face, but I still wouldn't be able to make informed decisions about it without training and experience combined. The divine called creature, not you, would be designing the cathedral. Advisors provide Aid Another bonuses or circumstance bonuses. They don't substitute for a complete lack of ranks in the skill.

So, every laborer who hauls stone to build a cathedral also has to have the skills of an architect, an engineer, a stonecutter, a miner, and a priest? How did cathedrals ever get built in the real world then?

The guy casting all the wall of stone spells is the construction crew. The divine called creatures are the architects/engineers telling you what to put up where.

(Or, of course, you could get some regular architects and engineers to direct you, which is slightly less instant-gratification and not nearly such extravagant overkill, but probably a good deal cheaper.)

 

[drothgery]

I had been wondering if there were a magic item that would do mining rather than laborers. The Lyre of Building costs 433 times as much a the labor cost saved from one use. This makes me think that a mine owner would rather higher the labor than obtain an expensive item to do the work (I was trying to think about how the mines in Idylls of the Rat King should really looks. The maps do not look like any silver mine made in the European Middle Ages).

How about a mid-level bard as part of a small magical construction crew that rents out its services? And we'll give one member of the crew Craft Wonderous Item so they can make the Lyre for half the cost (and other handy wonderous items). Use teleport or shadow walk or wind walk to move the crew from site to site and keep a secretary at the home office with Sending to keep openings for new jobs around and you ought to be able to keep the Lyre in use 40 weeks a year. Pays for itself in six years. Make this an old family business (or just elves), and the Lyre's long since payed for itself.

 

[Herobizkit]

Make sure you look at the lyre of building, your best friend for any construction project.

There is potential for abuse with such an item, so be wary.

An 18th level character who maxes out their Perform skill cannot fail a Perform check. You could theoretically create a magic item to grant +[x] to Perform checks to negate this possibility.

A cleric can cast spells to remove fatigue, thus the player can stay awake indefinitely with no penalty for fatigue.

Giving the player a ring of sustenance means he doesn't have to stop to eat or drink.

With all limitations overcome, the player could build an entire city in under a week.

 

[roguerouge]

The idea for history would be that you would be incorporating the history of the region or nation in the iconography and symbolism of your architecture. Probably knowledge nature would be necessary for where to get the variety of ingredients and their quality as raw resources. Appraise was included so that you don't get scammed on the art work at the center of the cathedral project: one evaluates the monetary worth of things with that skill. ("Trust me, my lord, this is fine Corinthian leather!" "That stained glass window with the nude baby Pelor? It's cutting edge, milord!")

Some of the craft skills might be lowered to 15 or 20, based on the parts that we're talking about, such as the church bell. (So add craft metalworking to the list.)

So, every laborer who hauls stone to build a cathedral also has to have the skills of an architect, an engineer, a stonecutter, a miner, and a priest? How did cathedrals ever get built in the real world then?

That's a bit of a straw man. The OP wanted his PARTY to build a cathedral, i.e. design it and get it built. Cathedrals required armies of grunt manpower but also a wide variety of skilled experts in various fields to design. No, not every laborer has to be a renaissance man; yes, the design TEAM should have a wide variety of requisite skills necessary to build a monument for the ages. My argument is that while spells can stand in for the gathering of raw materials and the grunt work, the design mojo and craftsmanship has to come from skills. (And I'm not convinced that moment of prescience would work with craft skills at all, as the checks represent cumulative effort and many decisions, not an "aha! moment".)

We agree on more than you think though. Certainly, the PCs can and should be able to use people skills to assemble a crack team. But if THEY BUILD IT then they need to make at least some of the checks themselves.