How Fleshed out IS PoL going to be?

[Remathilis]

Fluff-based mechanics are inevitable, the difference being in quantity, type, and tenacity of those mechanics. If there are not many of them, they are very archetypal, and they are easy to disentangle (halflings don't wear shoes being one of the best examples of this), then they are the least onerous for the homebrewer. The more there are, the less they cleave to generic fantasy tropes, and the more involved with other game elements they are (the "bards can cast spells in light armor" trope being perhaps the weirdest of your examples), the more difficult they are for the homebrewer (if my bards are religiously-sanctioned choir boys, maybe they cast divine spells in all armor...does that make the bard too powerful? does the lowered dependence on Dex affect the skill list? What about the PrC's, does this mean he can't qualify for one or more that he should be able to qualify for?).

GWA is evidence that WotC is intentionally stepping toward their world influencing mechanics, which is great to run the game out of the box, but not so great if you want to make your own box.

Which begs the question: How generic do you want your D&D?

WotC had two real options (assuming status quo isn't an option) More generic or more specific. WotC could have very well made a generic fantasy d20 RPG system (a toolkit for those of us who want arcane magic, orcs, and pie) with relatively balanced mechanics and a utterly fluffless world (beyond the small amounts needed to explain the game mechanics). It would have been a homebrewers dream. Except that Its been done before. As Castles & Crusades. As d20 Past. As Grim Tales. As Arcana Evolved. As Iron Heroes. As True d20. As "anyone with the SRD, time and creative ability" could do. In all honestly, any of those I mentioned are A LOT better at handling generic fantasy than D&D.

So where does that leave D&D. If we assume for a moment that all of those systems I just mentioned are equal to D&D in terms of playability (you may or may not agree, irrelevant) then what does a generic "D&D" bring to the table aside from better distribution and name recognition? Not much. So WotC falls back to the things that those others DON'T have: Product IP. Sure, tieflings are OGL, but the empire of Bael Whatever sure isn't. From WotC's side of things, product IP allows them to do creative things that a.) their competition can't copy and b.) makes D&D products unique against other d20 books.

Of course, by sprinkling in this stuff, it becomes harder to detangle. I'm fine with adding much of this stuff to my homebrew (its been fairly generic so far, why stop now) but if I had a more defined world, I'd probably panic too (I'm waiting to see how Eberron handles much of this 3.5->4e translation) However, you can't nash your teeth at WotC for wanting to expand its game beyond a sea of generic clones, can ya?

 

[Zurai]

There will never be a Points of Light Campaign Setting.

Why?

Points of Light is not a campaign setting. It's a campaign framework. The entire intent of PoL is the same as USB devices for your computer: plug and play. No work required to use anything tied to Points of Light. The DMG will give you a detailed starting town, and you can put it anywhere and it'll still work fine. Then you can pick up Keep on the Shadowfell and lead the PCs up to it because it's only a day's travel from the DMG town in your PoL world. When Complete Foozle comes out in 2008, you can easily introduce the new whatsits from the book by saying having the PCs stumble over a new town/ruin/whatever on their way to wherever.

That kind of stuff is only possible if there are no official maps, no official rules regarding the world. If there's a map of the area within 15 miles of the DMG town, then you're forced to either house rule the map or set the Keep on the Shadowfell more than 15 miles away. If there's no map, you're free to put it anywhere you want.

 

[LostSoul]

For that one example? Sure. But let's say you wanted to make tieflings some sort of angelic figures. What about the racial feats that give them bonuses to lying, cheating, and stealing? Or the epic destiny that turns them into a specific kind of devil at level 30? Or the one that gives them a bonus to hit dragonborn? And what about the one that gives dragonborn a bonus to hit them?

Sweet, is what I think.

Who wouldn't believe an angel when he lies to you?

What a great temptation for an angelic creature!

The epic destiny is a bunch of stats that could probably be switched to "good" pretty easily.

I don't know about the dragonborn. Though maybe you could scratch out "Dragonborn" and write in "Roman" and it might still make sense.

The one tiefling racial ability we know about is something about striking enemies that have hurt you. Call it "Just Retribution" for angelic creatures. "Berserker Rage" for a viking civilization. etc.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Points of Light is not a campaign setting. It's a campaign framework. The entire intent of PoL is the same as USB devices for your computer: plug and play. No work required to use anything tied to Points of Light. The DMG will give you a detailed starting town, and you can put it anywhere and it'll still work fine. Then you can pick up Keep on the Shadowfell and lead the PCs up to it because it's only a day's travel from the DMG town in your PoL world. When Complete Foozle comes out in 2008, you can easily introduce the new whatsits from the book by saying having the PCs stumble over a new town/ruin/whatever on their way to wherever.

And this here is what I see as the key concept of both PoL and 4th Edition design. The goal is to get people to design their campaign worlds in pieces rather than a whole world.

Sure, your campaign might be a lot of fun if you have a map of the whole world and the entire history of the world written from the beginning of time until the present day as well as the names of every major NPC in every city in the world.

However, if WotC releases a book next year that comes out with a cool class and you read it and really want to use it, you might be stuck since nowhere in your world do people teach those skills and you KNOW, you have it all written down.

You also start running into canon issues. You can't retroactively change history or the details of your world. So, the canon of your world prevents you from using published adventures in it, it prevents you from adding new classes into your game on the fly, it prevents you from having a dragon attack town Y and having the adventures save it. Why? Because you already know that the kingdom that Y is in has level 15 archers stationed at the borders and around all towns. The King also has a squad of 20 men ready to teleport anywhere in the kingdom at the first sign of trouble who are 10 levels above the PCs.

On the other hand, if you design your campaign world in points at a time, you have an open world where anything can be added when it is needed.

For instance, the PCs start in the starting town in the DMG, they are aware of the ancient history of elves and dwarves from the fluff in the PHB. They get the idea of what the shell of a D&D world looks like. They go to a dungeon and defeat some monsters. They go back to town and decide to head north to see what they can find.

Before the next session, the DM sees a book about Arcane magic and in it there is a race which is made out of magic and are incorporeal. He loves them and decides that they live in a forest to the north and are very protective of their domain. The PCs get attacked by them and have to make piece with them in order to get through the forest. And suddenly you have an adventure planned.

If the next week "Dungeon of Ultimate DOOM" is released as an adventure and you decide that it's to the east of the forest about a days travel away. You have another adventure.

And that's kind of the point, not only does it give a great excuse why the PCs are the heroes(there are no large kingdoms filled with powerful armies and wizards waiting to stop any threat, it is dangerous so towns have very little contact with one another, etc) but it gives an opportunity for DMs to use all the books that come out in their campaign.

 

[Deverash]

Great explanation of the major benefits of using a PoL basis for a homebrew. Even if you don't use any of the other published products, just not having to retcon your world to allow for a new class/feat/power source/spell/dungeon/whathaveyou is a good thing, in my book.

 

[Horacio]

And this here is what I see as the key concept of both PoL and 4th Edition design. The goal is to get people to design their campaign worlds in pieces rather than a whole world. [...]

I find your explanation really inspirational.

I love complete worlds, but my best D&D experiences have been with Planescape, using a rather similar approach. The only defined thing was Sigil and the general structure of the Planes, and all locations where created for the adventures, when they were needed.

 

[ObsidianCrane]

I'm kind of lost by the "PoL harms Homebrew" idea.

I'm homebrewing for 4E and have plenty in place already and the official fluff isn't really relevant going to change it now. I don't really care what feats are called, names are just a convienience thing for tieing mechanics to not a binding contract.