D&D 5E (2024) How I would do 6E.

[Yaarel]

I love 5e24.

For an e34, if a updated game engine is worthwhile then, fix the ability scores. Eight abilities are:

Strength-Constitution
Dexterity-Athletics
Intelligence-Perception
Charisma-Wisdom

 

[Eubani]

I think Con should be folded into Str and renamed, it just does not get used often enough and is a tax for martials.

 

[touc]

Why though? I get that this was one of the sacred cows the 3e team decided they had to keep, but can’t we finally get rid of these?

What is the point? They are just extra numbers on the character sheet that cause confusion. I have no problem keeping the 6 core stats if we must but why not cut out the middleman and just have the modifier?

It hearkens back to prior enworld discussions of what makes D&D....D&D (versus Pathfinder and all the other systems). Other systems have expanded the stats to 8 (e.g. Hackmaster). Fantasy Age (a D&D-esque system that replaced the math of the d20 with a 3d6) did away with the 3-18 ability score number after you generated it so that your character sheet simply reads +1 or +4, etc., alongside your stat. I recall reading D&D 3rd edition designers contemplated that and opted not to because it wouldn't look D&D anymore.

So, a hypo 6E would need some idea of what never could be changed to keep it D&D. If it abandons, modifies, consolidates, or otherwise changes the core 6, would it be D&D anymore? My proposal is that 6E could keep the stats but change how they impact the game. We're already there with the idea of skill use sometimes being impacted by different ability scores (e.g. DM might permit STR instead of CHA for Intimidation).

 

[HatWearingFool]

It hearkens back to prior enworld discussions of what makes D&D....D&D (versus Pathfinder and all the other systems). Other systems have expanded the stats to 8 (e.g. Hackmaster). Fantasy Age (a D&D-esque system that replaced the math of the d20 with a 3d6) did away with the 3-18 ability score number after you generated it so that your character sheet simply reads +1 or +4, etc., alongside your stat. I recall reading D&D 3rd edition designers contemplated that and opted not to because it wouldn't look D&D anymore.

So, a hypo 6E would need some idea of what never could be changed to keep it D&D. If it abandons, modifies, consolidates, or otherwise changes the core 6, would it be D&D anymore? My proposal is that 6E could keep the stats but change how they impact the game. We're already there with the idea of skill use sometimes being impacted by different ability scores (e.g. DM might permit STR instead of CHA for Intimidation).

But what would the ability scores ever add that you couldn’t just use the modifiers for? That’s what gets me, the ability score seem to exist solely to generate the modifiers. And then I use the modifiers for everything. So why do I need the ability score. It’s just a vestigial second number cluttering things up.

I’d also be happy doing away with the modifier if they can think of a clean way to just use unmodified ability scores for everything… but that seems tough. The whole reason we got the modifiers was because 3-18 isn’t a great number set for much.

Maybe you don’t roll a d20 anymore and just use your ability stat? I actually kind of like that idea

 

[Minigiant]

what would the ability scores ever add that you couldn’t just use the modifiers for? That’s what gets me, the ability score seem to exist solely to generate the modifiers. And then I use the modifiers for everything. So why do I need the ability score. It’s just a vestigial second number cluttering things up

The issue isn't that ability scores arent useful. It's that ability scores are underutilized.

In reality ability modifiers are over used.

If you want a value between 10 and 20, it is better to use the ability score than to add the ability modifier to your proficiency, modifier and some other value.

A + B + C
Versus
X

Like Spell DCs could be Abilty scores and Saving throw bonus Abilty score -10. 15 Dex? your Dexterity save bonus is +5.

 

[Sorinth]

I'm sure they will. But this is a thread for how I think they should do it.

Fair enough, personally I think there's a lot of value in being the system that can do every style reasonably well (Debateable for 5e I know), even if that means there are systems that do specific styles better. Especially if the system is easy to hack so that you can borrow whatever it is you like from other systems and easily put it on without really worrying about breaking anything.

The suggestion I do like from your previous post, is the developer notes, that should be everywhere in the DMG.

 

[HatWearingFool]

The issue isn't that ability scores arent useful. It's that ability scores are underutilized.

In reality ability modifiers are over used.

If you want a value between 10 and 20, it is better to use the ability score than to add the ability modifier to your proficiency, modifier and some other value.

A + B + C
Versus
X

Like Spell DCs could be Abilty scores and Saving throw bonus Abilty score -10. 15 Dex? your Dexterity save bonus is +5.

I’d have to see the implementation to really decide but my initial reactions is we need less derived numbers involving 3 or more numbers (such as spell save, to hit bonus) not more.

When I used to play with more rules/numbers intense people it was fine. But those things don’t work well with the people I play with now. They just find it confusing and often forget about updating numbers when they level up now.

I find the current version of D&D is really an illusion of choice. Most groups (in my sample size) use standard arrays, and usually mostly assign those stats in a common fashion depending on class. And we have a lot of formulas just in case someone deviates from the norm, but for a lot of people it’s needless confusion.

Proficiency bonus was a good move.. we need more like that and less add these 3 or 4 things together to get this value…

Again though I wonder if you could use something as simple as stat plus proficiently is your spell dc. You could just lower starting stats. Or just get rid of proficiency and use stat plus level. That’s easy and clean.

Or you could use stats and go to a roll under system. Strength check roll a d20 and succeed if roll under your strength stat, etc.

 

[HatWearingFool]

Fair enough, personally I think there's a lot of value in being the system that can do every style reasonably well (Debateable for 5e I know), even if that means there are systems that do specific styles better. Especially if the system is easy to hack so that you can borrow whatever it is you like from other systems and easily put it on without really worrying about breaking anything.

The suggestion I do like from your previous post, is the developer notes, that should be everywhere in the DMG.

I think the notes idea is interesting and would lean into the theory that D&D is a toolkit, but I don’t think the designers see it as a toolkit like that. Of course I don’t think it’s a toolkit so I would interpret things that way through my bias

Should D&D become a full tool kit system? It would be a radical change for sure, I guess I’d have to see the results but in general I don’t really like toolkit systems. They seem to have less flavour and focus to me.

 

[Minigiant]

I’d have to see the implementation to really decide but my initial reactions is we need less derived numbers involving 3 or more numbers (such as spell save, to hit bonus) not more.

It would be less brainwork.

Fighter with 16 STR, 12 DEX, and 14 CON

Attack DC is 16
Saving throws is just drop the 10
STR save is +6
DEX save is +2
CON save is +4

You only worry about ability modifier or proficiency modifier for Attacks and Skills. OR maybe just attacks,

That's the beauty of it, your numbers* don't level up with level. Only if you get an ASI or magic item.