How immersive do want a campaign setting to be?

[Thornir Alekeg]

Before any players are allowed to enter my campaign, they must enter into a "world introduction program" where they learn the geography, language, politics and societal norms of my game world. After about six months or so, they are permitted to join the game, as long as they can demonstrate proficiency in these areas and respond to any request or command from me with "Yes, your Emminance." I don't know why, but I seem to have problems finding players. The good news is that the players I have never leave, except when their families show up and kidnap them, that is.


No, in reality I don't care that much at all about being deeply immersed in the world. To me it just doesn't make for a fun time.

 

[Kaodi]

But all that said, I agree that it's possible to go overboard on detail. I'm all about a rich setting and history, and I love plots and puzzles and mysteries that tie into that setting, but asking me to memorize an entire geneology of the royal family, or to learn a new language--or even a new slang, like Sigil's cant--is going too far.

But Forge of War has everything to do with the geneology of the royal family!

 

[Jedi_Solo]

What a convenient time to ask this question...

WotC: Save My Game

As far as my own two copper go...

I don't want flavor forced on me. If there is some slang that's fine. Don't force me to learn it to play the game. If every NPC has a geneology that the DM has figured out for five generations and they have figured out 10 different life goals for each bar maid and street merchant... Wonderful. I'm glad they are having that much fun with the campaign. Don't make me research everyone I meet in order to do anything though.

I've been playing in the FR for years and barely know the major geographical layout, I don't want to be forced to know every dear path in the local forest.

edit: got the link working

 

[Greg K]

How immersive do I want it?
1) I want thought put into the deities
a) who they are
b) what are their portfolios, domains and symbols?
c) what is the relationship between deities and how does this play out among the clerics, paladins, etc.?
d) what does each deity expect behaviorally of his or her clerics, paladins, etc.?
e) prefabriated spell lists tailored to the deity's portfolio and domains


2) I want thought put into races and cultures prior to character generation. I want to know which races exist and what is (are) the culture(s) like including (but not necessarily :
a) typical appearance (ht. weight, eye color, hair color) and what range of variance
b) What is the primary subsistance pattern within the culture? hunter/gatherer, horticulture, agriculture, etc.
c) What is the the social organization? Band? Tribe?, What?
d) How do they view kinship and decent ?
e) What is the primary economy within the culture (e.g., barter, balanced reciprocity, market, etc.) ?
f) what is the Dress and body ornment for each culture (and when appropriate organization, and/or social class) ? For example, can only non peasants where a particular color, pattern or article of clothing. What do clerics and other holy people wear to make them identifiable as representatives of a specific deity? Do men or women wear their hair in a certain styoe or perhaps have some other way of indicating thier marriage status?
g) what is the general view of group identity?
h) what are some general social mores? What are views on punishment for breaking them?
I) what type of religion is found within the culture (e.g., animism, shamanism, polytheistic)
j) What are views on the practice of magic?
k) how do the various culture aspects affect the classes and their availability? Which classes are or not availble in a given culture? By nature of the culture, are certain class variants found within the culture and, if so, do they replace the standard class or co-exist.
l) What are the naming patterns/conventions with respect to peoples names?
j) a few curse words, etc. are not necessary, but wouldn't hurt

 

[WayneLigon]

Barker and Tolkien had doctorates in language studies; any language systems made up by them I would expect would be consistant and useful as indeed they are. Stafford, not being such a person, would have very probably detracted from the setting by creating languages for it (indeed he makes a note in, I think, a Different Worlds article that the terms used in Glorantha are their nearest Earthly equivilants so that the game is not burdened with a lot of fluff of arguable merit. For instance, though they constantly use the word 'bronze' in the game when referring to weapons, the actual metal used is not the alloy of copper and tin we know; it's mined directly from the bones of dead gods. Same thing with the armor made of 'gold' and other materials). He was wise enough to stick to mythological elements, something he's certainly done well.

A perfect example of why they should not do this is in Greenwood's Castlemourn setting. For some unholy reason he decided that he'd not only rename the cardinal directions but add a couple others as well. (Wargamer's World is the first place I ever saw an author use a different scheme than four directions, but they had a good reason; they literally had six-sided 'landmasses'). It tosses me out of the setting almost every paragraph when I have to flip back to see what the word means.

I don't expect my setting designer to have a doctorate in multiple earth sciences and social studies but I do expect them to make a significant effort towards some form on consistant verisimilitude OR come up with a convincing reason why X does not work the way it is expected. I don't usually take a lot of convincing; gimme loads of 'Cool' and I'll overlook 'realistic' in a heartbeat. You go with the flow. But some attention to things is required or you put a dam in that flow.

Mountains in FR. Have you ever looked at those? There are mountains where it's cool to have mountains, not where mountains would really make sense. Even Greyhawk has recognizable mountain chains and drainage systems. It, and the sense of city design that came out of the FR art style really put me off. I've never heard an intuitive explanation why people in the FR build cities where virtually no building touches another (save in Waterdeep), in defiance of all city design that existed previously, and I've never heard them say that those are suppossed to be blocks of buildings (all evidence I've seen from close-up maps says no

 

[Thunderfoot]

I tend to teeter on the fence on this subject... Here's why:

1) Immersion, there is a duty as a DM (which I am) to ensure that if anything is diffenet of similar to the real world, that I have completely and beyond all hope of error have researched, edited and cross-checked to the best of my ability. So that if a question arises, I may have a cohesive answer instead of ..."uuuh gee, I don't know." Religions should have holy days, prayer times, rituals and other such trappings to make them 'live', towns and coountries should be populated according to location and region to reflect agri-business, manufacturing, trade and commerce, therefore local resources should also be known or discovered, creating a boom town result creating role-play possibilities.

2) On the hoof, however, having the players memorize lineages, learn languages and take medieval cusine courses to ensure they don't order beef and burgendy when any fool 'knows' it hadn't been invented yet is just a bit too 'high and mighty' for my taste. If players CHOOSE to do this, fine, it will definately bring more to the table, but to require it is just asinine IMO.

I take the responsibility upon myself as the DM to create the setting and therefore know more than the players about it. Requiring the players to have that same level of dedication is too much to ask, at least in the begining. Yes, they should learn 'something' about who and what they are and play to that eventually, but that is on their role-playing skill (and therefore bonus XP every so often) not a game requirement.

 

[Glyfair]

1) Immersion, there is a duty as a DM (which I am) to ensure that if anything is diffenet of similar to the real world, that I have completely and beyond all hope of error have researched, edited and cross-checked to the best of my ability. So that if a question arises, I may have a cohesive answer instead of ..."uuuh gee, I don't know." Religions should have holy days, prayer times, rituals and other such trappings to make them 'live', towns and coountries should be populated according to location and region to reflect agri-business, manufacturing, trade and commerce, therefore local resources should also be known or discovered, creating a boom town result creating role-play possibilities.

Wow, you must have a hard time getting GMs you consider "competent" in your area. Sounds like you expect DMs to treat their game like a full-time job.

Thinking about it, this is the biggest issue with insisting on a highly immersive setting. The higher you set the bar, the more and more work you put on the DM. That creates fewer and fewer DMs that can run a game you are interested in (and no matter how detailed a setting is, the detail must go through the DM).

 

[Oryan77]

Detailing a campaign world with that much depth really has nothing to do with immersing a person in the world. Different things will get different people absorbed into a fantasy world.

You can provide very little fluff to your world, but if you roleplay interesting PC's well, provide fun adventures, personalize situations to each PC, & let the world react to what the PC's do; a player will be totally immersed in your world.

I enjoy PS cant. I use it when I DM, I've never heard anyone complain, everytime I use it players ask about the terms out of interest, & I've even had players like it so much they started using it. As far as I see, it only enhances the game. Now, I don't go using it in every sentence an NPC speaks, and I don't use 5 slang words in the same sentence. Only NPC's in Sigil or from Sigil use the cant in my campaign. I'd guess that if people don't like it, it must be because the DM abuses it. I agree that would be annoying. It's annoying if english speakers use a ton of slang words throughout their sentences in real life. But I definately wouldn't generalize PS cant and say it ruins the setting. It depends on how it's used.

I don't believe any DM requires players to learn a language for their game. I think that comment was a little exaggerated. But are there DM's that force players to use new words? If so, that's not a sign of an indepth world, that's a sign of crummy DM'ing. I don't even force players to speak PS cant. You won't get immersed in a world more with a new language than you would with good roleplaying.

I think of it the same way as guys who just have to roleplay a dwarf with a thick scottish accent. It cracks me up when I hear that. That silly accent isn't going to make anyone believe a dwarf is infront of him anymore than if you spoke normally but performed with a stubborn gruff personality. You can roleplay a dwarf with an american accent and the players won't think he's any less of a dwarf since he doesn't have the scottish accent.

Basically, I find nit-picking pointless details about a world boring and pointless. If a DM can give me a few basic ideas of why this city is different from the rest, what the environment I'm travelling through is like, show me varying NPC personalities, and roleplay a fun & realistic world; I'll be immersed. Any other small details they throw in every once in awhile will be bonuses, but it's not going to draw me into the world anymore if you've already provided my initial preferences. Religion, politics, social issues, cosmology, & languages are fillers and won't make me feel any more immersed than I already would be.

 

[Tinker Gnome]

I do not worry too much about immersion as a player. I do not mind at all if real world names are used. I find that I would sympathize with someone more who is named a real world name than some name that is just sounds like someone just let their fingers press random keys on the keyboard. Okay, this is an exaggeration yes but I think you get the point.

As a DM I like to try and create things that will immerse the players such as showing where dungeon residents get their food, and where they go to the bathroom.

 

[Thunderfoot]

Wow, you must have a hard time getting GMs you consider "competent" in your area. Sounds like you expect DMs to treat their game like a full-time job.

Thinking about it, this is the biggest issue with insisting on a highly immersive setting. The higher you set the bar, the more and more work you put on the DM. That creates fewer and fewer DMs that can run a game you are interested in (and no matter how detailed a setting is, the detail must go through the DM).

Note - I am the DM... If it isn't worth doing right, don't do it.