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How important is third-party support?

Tav_Behemoth

First Post
Hill Cantons blogger ckutalik just announced that his forthcoming Hill Cantons: Borderlands is going to be compatible with my forthcoming Adventurer Conqueror King. As a developer I'm pleased to hear him say "the unified economic system inside ACKS is a really inspired piece of work"; as a gamer I'm psyched for the reasons he describes:

"Although I believe that most people interested in this kind of campaign play would cherry-pick pieces of either systems and spindle, fold, mutilate them into their home games... <making the games compatible will let them> complement each other with different strengths and thus expand the cherry-picking options greatly.

Do you cherry-pick this way, so that having third-party support is an advantage because it gives you more options to mix and match?

Or is one of the things you want a publisher to do is to take care of pruning the cherry tree so you know whatever ones you reach for will be of the same quality, such that third party compatible material doesn't matter to you?

Are there some games or editions that you're more likely to mix and match than others?
 
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I think the only RPG I've ever played that had 3rd party support has been D&D. The vast majority of games don't have support from anyone other than the primary publisher.

So, for me, 3rd party support is not generally important. I've played decades worth of games without it - how important can it be?
 

For me, it is massively important that games have a wealth of support. Whether that's first party or third party, isn't so important.

I've played or dmed cthulu third party materials, sorceror third party (wasn't important, but was fun), D&D, pathfinder, white wolf? (monte cook's world of darkness, don't know if it counts) and a few others.


It's only so important as it is necessary. I found 3e desperately needed non WotC adventures (apart from a few very kickass ones), and I've found the same for 4e. Call of Cthulhu doesn't really need Delta Green, Cthulutech, or some of its third party support, but they do strengthen the game.



So, I guess the answer is the usual "it depends"...is the primary publisher covering all of the necessary bases? Even if they are, are there other publishers offering some tasty goodies that make you want to play a game even more?

In both of those cases, third party support is beneficial.
 

I think the only RPG I've ever played that had 3rd party support has been D&D. The vast majority of games don't have support from anyone other than the primary publisher.

So, for me, 3rd party support is not generally important. I've played decades worth of games without it - how important can it be?

Back before 3x, there really was little 3pp support for even D&D, however since 3x, I've come to rely on 3pps. Since the core rules were often missing elements I wanted to use in my games, but didn't want to create unbalanced versions myself - like sailing rules, chase rules, or fitting in genres that wasn't part of the basic vanilla game.

If 'vanilla' suits your fancy, then its true, 3pp's probably don't add much for you. But I've become more of 'rocky road' gamer and the vanilla of D&D was never enough by itself. 3pp's bring in more flavor, that often isn't commercially viable for the big company releases.

Its all up to taste, I suppose.

GP
 

3rd party support is essential if the content delivered by the 1st party is not good enough. Case in point: 3.x adventure modules.

3rd party support also adds a lot of diversity and often sparks interesting new ideas that can be reused and recycled. After all, no matter how smart and creative the 1st party guys are, if there is a lot of 3rd party support, 3rd party designers will eventually come up with cooler and better developed ideas than those present in the original game.
 

I'm thinking 3rd Party Support is pretty much essential anymore. If for no other reason than the 1st Party Folks can not do everything themselves (and often shouldn't try).

For instance, WotC has a horrible track record with pre-generated modules. If there was no 3rd Party, you'd be stuck with the garbage or have to do it all your self.
 

Back before 3x, there really was little 3pp support for even D&D, however since 3x, I've come to rely on 3pps. Since the core rules were often missing elements I wanted to use in my games, but didn't want to create unbalanced versions myself - like sailing rules, chase rules, or fitting in genres that wasn't part of the basic vanilla game.

In aggregate, for a publisher, balance can matter a lot - it impacts the play experience of thousands. In particular, for my own game, balance is only a matter of a half-dozen people, and I've always felt comfortable managing it myself. So, if I'm lacking a sub-system, I'll generally just make it up or handwave it.

This approach would work less well in a game filled with rules-monkeys - the types of players for whom interacting with the rules of the game is a major source of fun. My players aren't apt to go deep into the details of the system I use for sailing, so the details of that system don't need to be particularly balanced. If I'm not using the subsystem a lot, I probably don't need it at all.

If 'vanilla' suits your fancy, then its true, 3pp's probably don't add much for you. But I've become more of 'rocky road' gamer and the vanilla of D&D was never enough by itself. 3pp's bring in more flavor, that often isn't commercially viable for the big company releases.

I am normally a "right tool for the job" kind of GM. If what I'm looking for is not found natively in a system, then I look for a system that does have it. This goes especially for genre - most systems support only a small number of genres at their roots, so I'll generally seek out a system that does that genre explicitly, rather than modify another game to do the job.

D&D doesn't have sailing rules, and doesn't really do swashbuckling-style action well, and I want to do a game of pirates? Well, then I'll probably go look for a game in which pirates major thing natively, rather than use D&D to begin with. When I wanted to do "Wild West + steamtech + magic", I didn't look for a D&D supplement that handled it - I simply went straight to Deadlands.
 

Over the years, I've dealt with 3rd party stuff for D&D, Traveller, Champions, Villains and Vigilantes, Cyberpunk 2020, and Call of Cthulhu. I'd have to say that they've always added a nice bit of texture to the RPG landscape.
 

I agree with Aberzanzorax that there is some supplemental content the 1st party basically has to release. The Kickstarter for Adventurer Conqueror King set publishing mass combat rules as its first bonus goal because they're an integral part of the system, something we just ran out of room for in the core.

I'm thinking 3rd Party Support is pretty much essential anymore. If for no other reason than the 1st Party Folks can not do everything themselves (and often shouldn't try).

Definitely this. I am psyched to see Hill Cantons: Borderlands because it offers lots of stuff where I was like "we should do this thing except where will we find the time." And the reason Chris did those things first and we didn't is that each of us went where our burning ideas were - I think this is why trying to do everything = doing it less well than someone more passionately focused.

3rd party support is essential if the content delivered by the 1st party is not good enough. Case in point: 3.x adventure modules. 3rd party support also adds a lot of diversity and often sparks interesting new ideas that can be reused and recycled. After all, no matter how smart and creative the 1st party guys are, if there is a lot of 3rd party support, 3rd party designers will eventually come up with cooler and better developed ideas than those present in the original game.

If someone right away came out with their own set of mass combat rules that were compatible with Adventurer Conqueror King, I wouldn't assume it was because our "Domains of War" wasn't good enough - unlike D&D, there isn't a compelling sales advantage for third parties to declare compatibility, so I'd take it as 'that's awesome that our work sparked some new ideas' and also 'how cool that a third party likes our system enough to want to be compatible with it'. Hill Cantons: Borderlands was a parallel evolution, so only the latter is true; with the former it's more like a testament to the strength of the underlying ideas that it sparked both us and Chris to start projects devoted to the economy underlying the "zero to hero" progression.

I think that Wizards of the Coast likely uses the cooler and better ideas of its third party developers to spur their own development; I've heard some 3PPs say that if they come out with a book on Care Bear zombies that does really well, the official D&D Care Bear zombies won't be far behind.

But I thought that adventure modules was something 3E decided upfront not to do, except for the initial adventure path. Do y'all think 3PPs simply filled the gap WotC left, or were Forge of Fury and the rest lacking even for what they meant to achieve?
 
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In aggregate, for a publisher, balance can matter a lot - it impacts the play experience of thousands. In particular, for my own game, balance is only a matter of a half-dozen people, and I've always felt comfortable managing it myself. So, if I'm lacking a sub-system, I'll generally just make it up or handwave it.

This approach would work less well in a game filled with rules-monkeys - the types of players for whom interacting with the rules of the game is a major source of fun. My players aren't apt to go deep into the details of the system I use for sailing, so the details of that system don't need to be particularly balanced. If I'm not using the subsystem a lot, I probably don't need it at all.

For me, I have too often been in a game where the DM hand-waved something that gets used over and over in game. At low levels or at the level the hand-wave was introduced it wasn't a problem. But as the game got towards epic levels, the misread by the DM on what the rule adjustment did to the overall system broke the game, as they hadn't considered the ramifications of what the ruling did overall.

Balance for me has little to do with 'rules lawyering' rather how it affects all the rules or other subsystems of the rules. One little change can drastically affect the overall game.

One way to look at it, as some people think PF is just a copy/paste of 3x, yet even the slight changes between those systems - there becomes a huge difference in play. They become different games because of the slight changes. The same is true with any hand-wave or rules adjustment.

A rules adjustment that turns out to be not well thought out can ruin a campaign... I've experienced that occurance in more than one campaign. One of our players was one of our former DM, after his consistently poorly thought out rules adjustments causing infinite amounts of problems in the long run - we don't let him DM anymore. (When he suggests he'd like to run another campaign - our group unanimously votes - NO WAY...)

I am normally a "right tool for the job" kind of GM. If what I'm looking for is not found natively in a system, then I look for a system that does have it. This goes especially for genre - most systems support only a small number of genres at their roots, so I'll generally seek out a system that does that genre explicitly, rather than modify another game to do the job.

D&D doesn't have sailing rules, and doesn't really do swashbuckling-style action well, and I want to do a game of pirates? Well, then I'll probably go look for a game in which pirates major thing natively, rather than use D&D to begin with. When I wanted to do "Wild West + steamtech + magic", I didn't look for a D&D supplement that handled it - I simply went straight to Deadlands.

Sure if you're looking for a completely different genre. When I described I needed sailing rules, we weren't playing pirates or swashbuckling adventures. It was just a vanilla homebrew D&D, but suddenly half the campaign occurred at sea. Having sailing rules tailored to D&D specifically made our game smoother and easier to run.

Usually when I need a genre adjustment its a small thing, not a completely different animal, so no need to switch to a different ruleset just for a slight adjustment or one extra subsystem.

Kind of the same reason I am developing Kaidan for PF. The core rules, as well as what I know about Jade Regent didn't fit the bill for my needs for an oriental horror setting. So I built Kaidan to fit that bill. I didn't need to switch to CoC or other game system, PF works fine, but needed a slight adjustment - Kaidan, for me, is that adjustment.
 
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