How important should Stuff (tm) be?

[Archade]

From the Rust Monster Lovin Thread:
================================================
Quote:
Originally Posted by el-remmen
For me the thing is that this re-tooling of the rust monster reinforces my problem with baseline 3.x, which is the emphasis on the importance of your stuff - which personally I cannot stand.
================================================
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mearls
I think that's a bigger, more interesting point.
1e and 2e had a sort of, "Close your eyes and pretend it isn't a problem" approach to magic items.
3e regulated magic items, but perhaps too much, or it made magic items too much of a percentage of a PC's power.
=================================================

This is interesting, and certainly something I noticed.

In AD&D, a 20th level fighter was utterly useless without his equipment. Now, in 3rd edition, a 20th level fighter can probably still disembowel a CR 10 critter with a rusty spoon, but equipment is still vitally important.

I think the wealth-by-level-*guidelines* help a lot in the area of game balance and player expectations, but they still do promote the importance of stuff. As well, 3e seems to promote "Spell-Mart" shopping. Some old farts cringe at this change in the D&D campaign world culture.

Now, without going as extreme as Iron Heroes, is there a way to reduce the importance of stuff in your campaign without throwing out CR balance?

I am toying with running my next campaign at half-speed, with 50% experience (and therefore 50% treasure), so I am thinking that while wealth will still be in line with the game, most things will be out of reach from the PCs, as they will be in the lower levels longer.

Thoughts?

 

[Thunderfoot]

Old fart #1 waying in:

I hate the "stuff" importance concept and the wealth guidelines concept, they are both hogwash IMO... however, I think your approach is a step in the right direction fo one that isn't willing to try and abandon it whole hog. I have struggled with how to keep things in-line myself since the whole CR is a must and the stuff makes a difference, but I refuse to have any magic item shops in my worlds. Especially since XP is now a part of it, where are all these wizards getting their XP to fund Wal-Magic and keep them supplied?

However, for all of its faults, I have been absoulety impressed with the sliding XP scale caused by the new system. No longer can the 19th level fighter kill an innocent by-stander just to get the 3XP he needs for the next level. There has not be a solid middle ground somewhere, but it is my opinion that we are just now getting that familiarity with the rules that allow us to explore that next step.

Hopefully, we will arrive at perfection someday .... right before the world ends.

 

[A'koss]

I'm also solidly in the camp of "less reliance on stuff = good."

I agree with TF that you seem to be going in the right direction but seeing as equipment is so ingrained in the system it requires a careful eye when you start messing with it significantly.

Iron Heroes definitely goes in the right direction as far as suggesting ways you can remove the item dependency - class-based AC bonuses, more skills/skill points, everyone gains +1 to each Save every level, reserve points (reducing the dependency on magical healing) and more feats / class skills. Reducing the growing disparities between the classes at higher levels (AC/HPs/Attack capability, Saves vs DCs) should also be an important consideration.

And in IH, since there are no stat boosting items and hit point differences between the classes are compressed, there is less of a mess at higher levels where you have fighters capable of hitting things with impunity the rogue has trouble landing even a single blow. I love what Conan does in that everyone gets a +1 bonus to each stat every X levels (and what I do for my IH game). That also helps keep the playing field level more level at higher levels.

I also wanted to chime in my agreement with TF in that higher level characters shouldn't be gaining XP from 'gimme' targets. I think the CR system could use some simplification mind you, but what the CR system accomplishes is good.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

I think the reliance on stuff is tied to the expectation of weird critters. If you avoid bringing in all the DR/weird ability things that you *need* a magic item to overcome.. then any old weapon can work.

My 'fix' to this issue has always been a slower leveling progression, sticking to mostly human/natural opponent {avoiding the planar stuff}, and generally staying under 14th level.

I have always tried to emphasis the reliance on the characters skills and abilities instead of the Stuff(tm) they carried around.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

I think the wealth-by-level-*guidelines* help a lot in the area of game balance and player expectations, but they still do promote the importance of stuff.

Emphasis on the word "guidelines?" I suppose so. But those guidelines "help with balance" because of rules/system expectations for wealth. In other words, it's not a guideline as in "hey, this is my suggestion for how much treasure to give out -- just an opinion," but a guideline as in "this is how much the system design expects at this level -- if you're way outside the guidelines, balance may be a bit wonky."

As well, 3e seems to promote "Spell-Mart" shopping. Some old farts cringe at this change in the D&D campaign world culture.

Yeah, I don't like it at all. Buying magic items or "special ordering" them just isn't my cup of tea.

Now, without going as extreme as Iron Heroes, is there a way to reduce the importance of stuff in your campaign without throwing out CR balance?

The short answer is "No." Basically, if you eliminate the reliance on "stuff," you have to replace it with non-stuff equivalents, or you throw off the CR balance. You left some wiggle room in your statement by saying "without going as extreme as...," so I guess someone could argue that you can baby-step in the Iron Heroes direction. That doesn't change the equation though: if you take away a little bit of stuff, you have to add a little bit of non-stuff equivalents, or your balance will be a little bit off. Et cetera.

I am toying with running my next campaign at half-speed, with 50% experience (and therefore 50% treasure), so I am thinking that while wealth will still be in line with the game, most things will be out of reach from the PCs, as they will be in the lower levels longer.

This isn't really reducing importance on stuff, it's just slowing things down so the rate of "stuff reliance creep" isn't as obvious. If you plan on the campaign's power curve being half of normal (e.g. 1-10 instead of 1-20), then that's a reasonable approach. If you're planning on the same power curve (i.e. 1-20), just over twice the period of time, then you'll still run into the problem when you hit the higher levels (i.e. you're just delaying it, a bit).

IMO, if you're playing 3E, you're better off using the inherent and assumed wealth-and-magic levels. If you don't like those assumptions, then I think the best bet is to go with another system. It's possible to tweak 3E to different power/magic levels, but why go through the headache since others have already done the work for you? Iron Heroes is a decent choice that sticks pretty close to 3E/d20 rules.

 

[Mycanid]

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

I agree with Thunderfoot and A'koss on this one. Magic items are always nice, of course. But my FAVORITE adventures were the ones where the pc's were stripped of their equipment and had to figure it out - like A4, for instance.

There is a workaround to the problems of equipment being destroyed, and that is simply for the DM to balance the encounters, and avoid such situations where they could arise, or tone them down, or provide for other options nearby, etc., etc. Such things can easily be managed. And you don't need rules for such things either.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I don't want stuff to be important. But in 3.x, it is.

You could use rust monsters in a D20 Modern campaign fine with little fuss. After one or two harder-than-normal battles, the heroes either buy equipment (cheap) or they will have killed foes and taken their stuff (free). There's little chance the foes are going to have worse equipment than the heroes.

You could do the same thing with Iron Heroes, although full plate might not be so common you can expect to kill villains and take it off them, and you might take weeks to get back to the city so you can have some custom-fitted to your frame...

 

[Aaron L]

I would like a listed "magic modifier" for monster CR, a quick way to see what would be a good challenge for lesser equipped groups.


As it is I usually use levelled humans or classed ogres and such to deal with it. I wouldnt know how hard something like a beholder would be to a group with minimal magic items.

 

[PallidPatience]

The problem with magic items is that they're not just for DR purposes. Raising characters' ACs, Saves, and attack bonuses is vital, too. At the same time, stat-boosters are expected; spellcasters are intended to have x spells of each level to cast per day, and those numbers can't be reached without the Headband of Intellect, or what-have-you.

It's a very complicated thing that has impacts all over the place.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

I agree with Thunderfoot and A'koss on this one. Magic items are always nice, of course. But my FAVORITE adventures were the ones where the pc's were stripped of their equipment and had to figure it out - like A4, for instance.

A4? Sounds like a 1e module. Neither 1e nor 2e made any assumptions about how much magic PCs would carry on them. Furthermore, A4 was probably playtested with equipment-less PCs, not quite the same thing as doing a standard 3e adventure when the PCs have been stripped of equipment.