Pathfinder 2E How is Pathfinder doing?

[Thomas Shey]

The only argument I can see for dealing no damage on a save is that flaming sphere requires only an action to Sustain it (and move it), so can you ram things with your sphere while casting spells or doing other things.

The sorcerer in my game used flaming sphere to good effect. I expect it let’s problems for repertoire-based casters because you don’t have to dedicate the slot up front. I can see why it might feel like a poor choice for a prepared caster like a wizard.

Its an argument. But at that point you absolutely need to cast it early, because its only going to really pay for its downsides over time, and one of the notable things about PF2e is that the majority of combats don't last too many rounds (I'm wanting to say I've rarely seen them go beyond five).

 

[Thomas Shey]

I mean, the Sagamore Ballroom was divided this year (with a third of it going to 40K lasertag). So what you're seeing is a fraction of the interest from GenCons at least 5 years ago.

Anyone know what the overall attendence was this year compared to pre-COVID? I know there's a strong "aaaah, we have to get out and do things!" with some people, but I also know a fair amount of people you still wouldn't get into a packed room like that on a bet now who would have done so five years ago.

 

[Retreater]

Anyone know what the overall attendence was this year compared to pre-COVID? I know there's a strong "aaaah, we have to get out and do things!" with some people, but I also know a fair amount of people you still wouldn't get into a packed room like that on a bet now who would have done so five years ago.

It could be that I'm no longer in the habit of being around large crowds, but the Vendor Hall seemed about as crowded as I remembered from my last GenCon (2019): huge lines, getting pushed around, etc. But I haven't seen specific numbers.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

That might also be changes in consumer habits with no cons the last couple of years and their newer fans being less in-the-scene, and the growth in subscriptions.

if i had gone to gencon this year in person, my copy of Dark Archive still would have had come in the mail weeks before so i could get the pdf as early as possible so id only really be interacting with paizo to say hi, or to GM society like I did at pax unplugged right before covid.

Whereas 5+ years ago more people were buying from FLGS on or after street date, grabbing the new product at gencon just makes more sense. I think they used to avoid sending subs out before the con as well but that was before my time.

 

[payn]

They still doin Paizocon?

 

[Thomas Shey]

It could be that I'm no longer in the habit of being around large crowds, but the Vendor Hall seemed about as crowded as I remembered from my last GenCon (2019): huge lines, getting pushed around, etc. But I haven't seen specific numbers.

Well, to be clear, I'm just speculating; the last five years has had a lot of things going on over and above a new edition of Pathfinder, so...

 

[Staffan]

See, I don't think that would be at all a good idea; mages have all kinds of other options, tossing them a superior single target damage attack strikes me as moving right back to "Why do we keep non-spellcasters again?" and that's a mode that PF2e has pretty successfully moved away from.

I see the point there, but I think "expend a limited resource on single-target damage" should do more than "expend a limited resource on AOE damage".

And if that feels bad for the martials, I'm all for giving them limited resources to do cool things too.

Well, there's always the question about how many you need most of the time. Its not like they're going to be the only thing you find to do in a given fight, and they aren't going to be the best choice in every fight anyway for one reason or another. It might make a difference if you're in a campaign environment where you go through a whole lot of fights in one day, but that hasn't been what I've seen very often at least.

My GMing experience has been mostly with Extinction Curse, which in the first two volumes and first eight levels had 6-7 dungeons (depending on whether you count the levels in the underground Aroden temple as one or two dungeons – you're supposed to level up after the first level, so I'll count it as two) each with 10+ encounters, three of which are strongly urged to be done in a single run.

Wizards get an extra spell from their school, I was indeed playing my evocation wizard (the blasting Wizard), and a universalist could do it as well by simply restoring their blasting spells via the universalist version of drain bonded item. Largely I prefer the feel of the way it's balanced because a boss (especially a +3/+4) should not be something you can easily deal a massive chunk to super conveniently, so lobbing spell slots at it for incremental damage to work down a super resistant target just feels appropriate for a boss fight. It stops you from getting those awful feeling 5e wet soggy cardboard bosses where the players getting the cheap rush of a curb stomp, comes at the expense of a less fun boss fight.

I think part of my issue is that Pathfinder 2 has gone for exclusively "tall" boss fights. Boss-type creatures are bosses because numbers big. This is unlike 4e with "wide" bosses: defenses and attack bonuses in about the same range as regular monsters, but more hit points, better action economy (e.g. strong reactions, interrupts, cleaves/AOEs), and so on. This is something I miss. I sometimes hear Pathfinder designers talk about this as a feature: The same 3rd level ogre stat block can make for a boss encounter at level 1, and act as a minion at level 5, and that's cool because it lets the PCs feel how much more powerful they are. I see that point, but I think it's more important to have satisfying boss fights now rather than being able to compare fights across levels.

 

[Justice and Rule]

I mean, the Sagamore Ballroom was divided this year (with a third of it going to 40K lasertag). So what you're seeing is a fraction of the interest from GenCons at least 5 years ago.
The lines at the Paizo booth used to stretch out of the Vendor Hall, and now the shopping line would evaporate within an hour of the floor's opening each morning. It was disheartening to see stacks of Dark Archive sitting there on Sunday after seeing Free League and Zweihander selling out of entire product ranges. [And yes, I know smaller companies bring fewer copies and might sell out quicker, but presumably they also have less promotion, less interest, fewer fans, etc - so it should be comparable.]
I'm not bringing this up to disparage Paizo, Pathfinder 2, or its many fans. As I've started numerous times, I like the system overall. But I think that when people say "it's going as strong as ever" and then I see the event space one-third the size of the last time I went - that tells me that "in practice" there are some issues.
As fans, should we promote it more? Do they need more PFS GMs at events?

I feel like you're desperate to create a problem where there is none on the basis of your vibes alone.

 

[Justice and Rule]

They still doin Paizocon?

That was earlier in the year, wasn't it? Like late-May early-June?

Edit: Actually they announced an Australian one apparently? I suppose this also bodes ill for Paizo somehow.

 

[Retreater]

I feel like you're desperate to create a problem where there is none on the basis of your vibes alone.

Not my intent. I've sincerely attempted to run the game numerous times and asked for advice. I've put out promotional effort to start a local 2e PFS game. I've tried to encourage friends and strangers to play it.
I guess my posts reflect the constant frustration I feel trying to get this game accepted in my circles. Perhaps my experience is atypical? Perhaps I'm finding signs of the game's lack of success where there are none? Maybe that's my frustration coming out: because if it's doing so well, why can't I get a game going, why do the books sit on the shelves of my local store, and (most fundamentally) what could I do about it?
But I guess I shouldn't be concerned about this. My posts about this topic are not welcome here. They're either bringing people down or met with snark and outright insults.