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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6052711" data-attributes="member: 87792">If we look at the <a href="http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=k4s9c1tlc03jk78eh7p4quq1j0&topic=5293" target="_blank">class tier list</a> rogues are still a clear tier 4 - and from stealth nerfs (like the blink issue and a lack of niche protection) probably lost as much as they gained.  On the other hand the fighter and paladin both moved up to tier 4 (the monk is more dubious) and all the other tier 5 and belows have vanished (other than the gunslinger).  Which now means the rogue is fending off the monk - and because everyone else moved up he's at the bottom of tier four.  Also most PF exclusive classes are casters, and there are few casters that aren't tier 3 and above.  (I'm not sure whether the Summoner is tier 2 or 1)The Bard on the other hand took a series of nerfs - Bardic Music is a whole lot weaker for the first six levels of the game - Bardic Music lasts for 1 fight/level in 3.X (more if you stretch it) but only is much more limited in PF and takes a standard action to start - you don't get to start as a move action until 7th level.  The big fourth level boost (Alter Self) has taken a deserved nerf.  Bardic Lore now relies on other skills and reduces its scaling. At 7th level the bard gets both its real power spell (Glibness, nerfed but not seriously) and Inspire Courage as a move action.  On the other hand it can't run the "rolling battle" - an Inspire Courage maintained for an entire orc camp or the like, so they may have caught up with their core 3.X rivals.  But that's only a few levels before they could start bullying fighters anyway - and most games don't last much beyond that.  I'm not sure that the Pathfinder Bard qualifies for tier 3 any more especially with the Inquisitor (and arguably the Magus) moving in on Bard territory.</blockquote>

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