Pathfinder 1E How is the rogue nerfed

[NewJeffCT]

I'm hoping to start a Pathfinder game fairly soon, but I've seen several comments on here in recent weeks about how the rogue was nerfed in Pathfinder compared to 3.5E.

Can somebody explain how the rogue was nerfed? It doesn't look that different from 3.5E at a glance.

Thanks

 

[Ebony Dragon]

Rogue doesn't seem nerfed to me. They were buffed just like all the classes were. I think they are more commenting on how rogues are just bad in general in 3.5 and Pathfinder didn't do anything to fix that.

A few things that might contribute to rogues feeling weaker in Pathfinder is the loss of some of the powerful prestige classes that a rogue could move into to make themselves effective in combat (like master thrower).

Also the new tumble rules which make it WAYYYY harder to tumble through threatened squares than it was in 3.5 - This directly hurts Monks and Rogues the most as they are supposed to be the mobile melee fighters who really need to be successful at tumbling to maneuver through a battlefield.

 

[dnlas]

Rogues now have Rogue Talens as class feature
Sneak attack now can work on undead and someting else.
Others not change

 

[DragonLancer]

The rogue hasn't been nerfed at all. They are just as good as they as they ever were but now they get rogue talents to make them better.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I'm hoping to start a Pathfinder game fairly soon, but I've seen several comments on here in recent weeks about how the rogue was nerfed in Pathfinder compared to 3.5E.

Can somebody explain how the rogue was nerfed? It doesn't look that different from 3.5E at a glance.

Thanks

I don't think it was. It just wasn't significantly buffed - unlike almost every other class. The buffs the rogue got amount to a hit point a level, fewer skills in the game so their skill points go further. And some generally weak talents. The fighter's skill points go further and also there are no dead levels for a PF fighter - that's an ability every other level. Barbarians get Power Rages. Casters get their cantrips at will. In short the rogue remained static as almost everyone else was buffed (other than the bard).

 

[Empirate]

Some very useful tricks were nerfed directly: you can't draw and throw more than one alchemical item per turn (pure arbitrariness, I say); Blink doesn't let you sneak attack; trapfinding can now be done by everybody, with Perception relying on Wis, making Rogues more MAD (whereas Search in 3.5 relied on Int, which Rogues usually had in spades but few others had). There are others.

Apart from that, the relative nerf is what people get agitated about. Fewer skills means everybody gets to get a few essential ones (like Perception, s.a.), with Rogues losing their niche of 'skillmonkey' in comparison. Fighter weapon training, Barbarian rage powers etc. cut down on the comparative combat performance of Rogues.

All in all, Rogues lost niche protection and didn't gain anything in return. Most classes received significant buffs or at least gained lots of versatility, while Rogues simply lack in most areas now, where before they had some areas of expertise nobody else could duplicate.


I'm still of the opinion that you can play a very effective Rogue - AND that the class can be tons of fun. But it's got next to nothing going for it that other classes couldn't emulate, or even outright do better.

 

[MoonSong]

Yeah, PF Bards got nerfed hard. Part of it was changes to the class, part was the loss of key feats, equipment rules and prestige classes.

 

[Jester David]

Yeah, PF Bards got nerfed hard. Part of it was changes to the class, part was the loss of key feats, equipment rules and prestige classes.

Although, is that really nerfed if all that stuff wasn't in the core books anyway?

 

[MoonSong]

Although, is that really nerfed if all that stuff wasn't in the core books anyway?

Well the overall effect is still the same, in 3.5 bards are somewhat spoony by default, but the extra options in CSC, CAd, CArc & CM round them to become very effective. Yet their greater strengths are there in the core.

While PF compensated some of their weaknesses, it then bashed all of their strengths, high level bards look great, but they now have to struggle at low levels. Getting Inspire Courage +4 three levels before doesn't quite makes up for it's weakened effect at lower levels (not to mention the extra bookeeping and tha many songs no longer stack), the loss of synergies and the changes to bardic knowledge makes it harder for them to use their skillpoints efficiently and the codiffied Versatile Performance closed the door to improvisation.

 

[Neonchameleon]

The rogue hasn't been nerfed at all. They are just as good as they as they ever were but now they get rogue talents to make them better.

If we look at the class tier list rogues are still a clear tier 4 - and from stealth nerfs (like the blink issue and a lack of niche protection) probably lost as much as they gained. On the other hand the fighter and paladin both moved up to tier 4 (the monk is more dubious) and all the other tier 5 and belows have vanished (other than the gunslinger). Which now means the rogue is fending off the monk - and because everyone else moved up he's at the bottom of tier four. Also most PF exclusive classes are casters, and there are few casters that aren't tier 3 and above. (I'm not sure whether the Summoner is tier 2 or 1)

The Bard on the other hand took a series of nerfs - Bardic Music is a whole lot weaker for the first six levels of the game - Bardic Music lasts for 1 fight/level in 3.X (more if you stretch it) but only is much more limited in PF and takes a standard action to start - you don't get to start as a move action until 7th level. The big fourth level boost (Alter Self) has taken a deserved nerf. Bardic Lore now relies on other skills and reduces its scaling.

At 7th level the bard gets both its real power spell (Glibness, nerfed but not seriously) and Inspire Courage as a move action. On the other hand it can't run the "rolling battle" - an Inspire Courage maintained for an entire orc camp or the like, so they may have caught up with their core 3.X rivals. But that's only a few levels before they could start bullying fighters anyway - and most games don't last much beyond that. I'm not sure that the Pathfinder Bard qualifies for tier 3 any more especially with the Inquisitor (and arguably the Magus) moving in on Bard territory.