Pathfinder 1E How is the rogue nerfed

[Empirate]

The elf, and why they make great rogues.

Weapon training: Forget being stuck with a short sword or a shot bow, d6s are for little folk and improperly trained nut jobs running around in the dark.

d6s are your reason to play a Rogue. They're what sneak attack is about. That single point of damage on a longbow or longsword really doesn't make a difference if every attack you land also does a bunch of d6s extra. IF you can reliably get sneak attack damage, which I find hard to do with a ranged build.

Low-light vision: While darkvision is far superior, you can see twice as far as that lame human cleric in the party, and let's face it, you need to see farther.

Boost on perception: Your job in the party is to find traps, secret doors, and all the other hidden stuff, mostly so you can steal it for yourself when no one is looking, but nevertheless, it helps.

These I'll give you, but it's a very minor skill boost, and the low-light vision thing is easily amended with a magic item. I'd still rather have no Con penalty, thank you very much.

Ability scores: -2 to con does suck, but this reinforces the archer concept, keeping you out of harms way, take point black at 1st level (obviously) and then the first rogue trick should the combat feat, take precise shot, badda-bing, you're in business.
+2 dex, this is awesome, let's face it, you'll be a better shot (more archer points), you can disable device better (its dex) not to mention most of your skills are also dex related, you get a bump in the reflex department (this is endlessly useful) and lets not forget that armor class increase, or the higher dex for armor, which then has less of an armor check penalty, which means better for using your skills.
+2 intelligence: this is what actually sealed the deal here. With a +2 to int, you get more skills, which for a rogue means more awesomeness to save the party in almost every hallway, assuming your DM is like mine and thinks traps are like candy on halloween.

+2 Dex can be had by Humans, too, although you don't have to take it. But for an archer Rogue (if you're dead set on playing one), it's an obvious choice.

If you want Int for skillpoints, guess what, Humans get those, and in an amount exactly equal to a +2 Int increase.

-2 Con is horrible for an already fragile warrior type, and don't go on advertising that this "reinforces the concept". Less HP is just (capitalized) Bad, and a lower Fort save is Bad as well, since it's going to be low anyway.



Oh, and Humans gain a bonus feat! Guess which combat style is the most feat intensive? Archery? Right on the first guess! Now you can have Precise Shot at 1st level and not suck for two whole levels whenever an ally is in melee with the enemy (which you, as an archer, should definitely hope for to be the case!).

 

[Neonchameleon]

but guys....do you even play bards?

Favourite class in 2e, and in 3.5. One of my favourites in 4e and the only one I've played two different PCs from.

Most of the time I play them with CHA->DEX->INT->WIS->STR->CON, though one time I dumped int (except on 4e as it doesn't work that way).

Con over str for me - but charismatic, agile and dashing for me too.

Versatile Performer is just as bad, while in principle being able to substitute a skill for others sounds good, many of the substituted skills are skills you are bound to train anyway from level one (Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense motive and Acrobatics).

Unless you plan on versatile performing that way at level 2 anyway. The level 2 versatile performer is good - the level 6 is weird.

Fascinate, I really really lament the way it was nerfed, before it was a cool way to keep enemies from fleeing the battlefield, now it is a waste of your standard action, and IMO the removal of perform checks from it took away a lot of flavor. And with such a weakened Fascinate, Persuassion is harder to use.

Yup. In addition to fascinate now being a weaksauce effect that is worse than just about any other mind control spell, Persuasion has a double save. Fascinate at +5 to save DC would work.

On general the way they changed bardic performance just added extra bookepping for little real benefit.

And meant there were things you just couldn't do any more.

 

[NewJeffCT]

Thanks - interesting thread so far. I'm hoping to start a PF game soon, but nobody is interested in playing a rogue so far.