Pathfinder 1E How is the rogue nerfed

[Summer-Knight925]

I would hardly called the rogue nerfed, just a tad bit harder to play.

Rogue talents open up a large amount of things you can do (same with ninja tricks which will be used in this example)
I played an elven rogue (meta game: best combo actually) who was the primary archer in the group. He was/is awesome. With the right feats, rogue tricks, and skills, I made myself into a free-running sniper...at 5th level. And that was because I knew generally what I had in mind to do.

In my new group, the character playing the ninja is actually a combat assassin, taking ninja tricks (same as rogue talents really, in fact a ninja trick you can take IS a rogue talent) that boost his defenses.

It is all in direction.
If you want a melee rogue, you can do that.
If you want an archer rogue, you can do that.
If you want a sneaky thief extraordinaire, you can do that.
If you want a trap disabling guru who has yet to find a lock that can stop him, you can do that.

Perhaps the way it could have been 'nerfed' is that mixing into those 'focuses' is like multiclassing without the perks; which is another thing in Pathfinder, multiclass and you lose out on abilities, every class has way more abilities now, and that makes at least me cautious about what I do.
Furthermore, with a lot of the skills becoming one thing, you can actually make the rogue really powerful in that skill block, and with now simplified rules, you can exploit some things that, while you could before use to take up time.

My free-runner sniper elf has a high acrobatics skill (for his level), this means I can tumble through occupied squares and not provoke AoO, while this was the case in 3e, in Pf its easier to figure out target numbers. The same goes for bluff and feinting, which I exploited the bleh out of it 3e, getting me sneak attack nearly every turn, of course they did change it a bit in Pf, but nevertheless, still worth it.

With disable device and pick lock now one skill, hide and move silently one skill, balance and tumble one skill, and the awesome way of Pf doing skills, well...if you have a theme in mind stick to it, because all it takes is a little thought, a little planning (not even to 10th level, maybe to 4th at the most) and that perfect mindset for your character and BAM. you have yourself an amazing rogue.


Also, if you have questions on the Cleric I can answer those, especially thanks to the new 'always proficient with the deity's weapon' stuff, you can really make the cleric into the healer AND 2nd rank something else.
But this is about rogues, so there, gave you my thoughts on rogues.

 

[dd.stevenson]

The big ones are that ranged SA is no longer viable, that tumble is mostly not viable past about level 5, and that rogues have barely a whiff of niche protection.

If you normally play it fast and loose with the rules (like I suspect most 3E/PF groups do), then these things are easy to hand-wave away with DM fiat.

 

[NewJeffCT]

If we look at the class tier list rogues are still a clear tier 4 - and from stealth nerfs (like the blink issue and a lack of niche protection) probably lost as much as they gained. On the other hand the fighter and paladin both moved up to tier 4 (the monk is more dubious) and all the other tier 5 and belows have vanished (other than the gunslinger). Which now means the rogue is fending off the monk - and because everyone else moved up he's at the bottom of tier four. Also most PF exclusive classes are casters, and there are few casters that aren't tier 3 and above. (I'm not sure whether the Summoner is tier 2 or 1)

The Bard on the other hand took a series of nerfs - Bardic Music is a whole lot weaker for the first six levels of the game - Bardic Music lasts for 1 fight/level in 3.X (more if you stretch it) but only is much more limited in PF and takes a standard action to start - you don't get to start as a move action until 7th level. The big fourth level boost (Alter Self) has taken a deserved nerf. Bardic Lore now relies on other skills and reduces its scaling.

At 7th level the bard gets both its real power spell (Glibness, nerfed but not seriously) and Inspire Courage as a move action. On the other hand it can't run the "rolling battle" - an Inspire Courage maintained for an entire orc camp or the like, so they may have caught up with their core 3.X rivals. But that's only a few levels before they could start bullying fighters anyway - and most games don't last much beyond that. I'm not sure that the Pathfinder Bard qualifies for tier 3 any more especially with the Inquisitor (and arguably the Magus) moving in on Bard territory.

Thanks for the list - but, it's 51 pages long. Wow.

 

[Jester David]

Well the overall effect is still the same, in 3.5 bards are somewhat spoony by default, but the extra options in CSC, CAd, CArc & CM round them to become very effective. Yet their greater strengths are there in the core.

While PF compensated some of their weaknesses, it then bashed all of their strengths, high level bards look great, but they now have to struggle at low levels. Getting Inspire Courage +4 three levels before doesn't quite makes up for it's weakened effect at lower levels (not to mention the extra bookeeping and tha many songs no longer stack), the loss of synergies and the changes to bardic knowledge makes it harder for them to use their skillpoints efficiently and the codiffied Versatile Performance closed the door to improvisation.

So, put another way, because Pathfinder didn't start at the level of power creep as late edition 3.5 it was a nerf?

Plus, PF was designed to be backwards compatible. So the options still exist.

 

[sheadunne]

It's not so much that it was nerfed, it's that they made other classes better at being rogues, than rogues. Urban Ranger. Ninja. Vivisectionist. Archeologist (perhaps, depending on your criteria).

 

[Empirate]

I would hardly called the rogue nerfed, just a tad bit harder to play.

Rogue talents open up a large amount of things you can do (same with ninja tricks which will be used in this example)
I played an elven rogue (meta game: best combo actually) who was the primary archer in the group. He was/is awesome. With the right feats, rogue tricks, and skills, I made myself into a free-running sniper...at 5th level. And that was because I knew generally what I had in mind to do.

In my new group, the character playing the ninja is actually a combat assassin, taking ninja tricks (same as rogue talents really, in fact a ninja trick you can take IS a rogue talent) that boost his defenses.

It is all in direction.
If you want a melee rogue, you can do that.
If you want an archer rogue, you can do that.
If you want a sneaky thief extraordinaire, you can do that.
If you want a trap disabling guru who has yet to find a lock that can stop him, you can do that.

Perhaps the way it could have been 'nerfed' is that mixing into those 'focuses' is like multiclassing without the perks; which is another thing in Pathfinder, multiclass and you lose out on abilities, every class has way more abilities now, and that makes at least me cautious about what I do.
Furthermore, with a lot of the skills becoming one thing, you can actually make the rogue really powerful in that skill block, and with now simplified rules, you can exploit some things that, while you could before use to take up time.

My free-runner sniper elf has a high acrobatics skill (for his level), this means I can tumble through occupied squares and not provoke AoO, while this was the case in 3e, in Pf its easier to figure out target numbers. The same goes for bluff and feinting, which I exploited the bleh out of it 3e, getting me sneak attack nearly every turn, of course they did change it a bit in Pf, but nevertheless, still worth it.

With disable device and pick lock now one skill, hide and move silently one skill, balance and tumble one skill, and the awesome way of Pf doing skills, well...if you have a theme in mind stick to it, because all it takes is a little thought, a little planning (not even to 10th level, maybe to 4th at the most) and that perfect mindset for your character and BAM. you have yourself an amazing rogue.


Also, if you have questions on the Cleric I can answer those, especially thanks to the new 'always proficient with the deity's weapon' stuff, you can really make the cleric into the healer AND 2nd rank something else.
But this is about rogues, so there, gave you my thoughts on rogues.

I don't get how you can go ahead and praise archer Rogues, of all archetypes. It's almost impossible to gain reliable sneak attack going (not even balancing opponents are considered flat-footed anymore!), and you lack the feats for an effective archer anyway.

Elf is not really that great for Rogues either, since apart from their OK (but not great! Who wants to take a hit to Con?!) stat mods, they're not getting anything Rogue-relevant.

Level 5 is not really the point where I would compare classes, since up to that point, almost all the classes stay relatively well balanced. So you're good at 5th, but it is at the mid levels that the Rogue's deficits really start to show. Tumble through an opponent's square? Yeah, as long as we're talking humanoid 5th level opponents - but never at 10th or (god beware) 15th level, with Acrobatics DCs well in the 30s or even 40s.

I'm glad you had fun with your character, and it probably depends a lot on the playstyle of your group (it always does with Rogues), but I believe from a pure optimization standpoint, your post is misleading.

So, put another way, because Pathfinder didn't start at the level of power creep as late edition 3.5 it was a nerf?

Plus, PF was designed to be marketed as backwards compatible, even though in fact that takes so much houseruling it compares unfavorably to the 3.0/3.5 upheaval, and most groups don't play that way anyway. So the options still exist.

FTFY.

Also, I believe several of the later rules supplements for 3.x were in fact much better balanced than the early stuff. Tome of Battle, for instance, at least made an effort to give us interesting melee classes who can hold their own in a game of powerful magic and strange monsters. Whereas Core 3.x simply hands the keys to world domination to full casters and doesn't even offer any interesting (not to speak of powerful) options for mundanes.

Pathfinder clamps down much harder on power creep, that much is true, and I like the general approach of "let's try to make this game more balanced, and more interesting for mundanes". However, in many instances they just didn't do a good job of it. As the Rogue example shows.

 

[Sunseeker]

After my last 3.X/Pathfinder game with my friends, the rogue is decidedly NOT nerfed.

 

[Empirate]

Care to elaborate?

 

[Summer-Knight925]

The elf, and why they make great rogues.

Weapon training: Forget being stuck with a short sword or a shot bow, d6s are for little folk and improperly trained nut jobs running around in the dark.

Low-light vision: While darkvision is far superior, you can see twice as far as that lame human cleric in the party, and let's face it, you need to see farther.

Boost on perception: Your job in the party is to find traps, secret doors, and all the other hidden stuff, mostly so you can steal it for yourself when no one is looking, but nevertheless, it helps.

Ability scores: -2 to con does suck, but this reinforces the archer concept, keeping you out of harms way, take point black at 1st level (obviously) and then the first rogue trick should the combat feat, take precise shot, badda-bing, you're in business.
+2 dex, this is awesome, let's face it, you'll be a better shot (more archer points), you can disable device better (its dex) not to mention most of your skills are also dex related, you get a bump in the reflex department (this is endlessly useful) and lets not forget that armor class increase, or the higher dex for armor, which then has less of an armor check penalty, which means better for using your skills.
+2 intelligence: this is what actually sealed the deal here. With a +2 to int, you get more skills, which for a rogue means more awesomeness to save the party in almost every hallway, assuming your DM is like mine and thinks traps are like candy on halloween.

HOWEVER, only the archer build is really worth your while for an elf rogue. I'm not saying you should only play elf rogues, BUT for certain characters, it's worth it.

If you wanted a sneaky rogue, go halfling.
If you wanted a melee rogue, go human (or half-orc)

if anything, the only real downside to an elf rogue is the -2 to con, as this means a lower fortitude save, which means poisons, disease, and our favorite save or die spells, are that much more effective against you.
But you're an elven rogue, what are you doing getting attacked by giant spiders?
You cray Mr. Elf Rogue, you cray.


The only other thing I'd play an elf at would be a ray spell focused wizard, or a sniper wizard.
And that's just metagame.

I'm actually about to do an Elven Druid (advanced race guide variant plant druid) and use a bow, mostly because our party needs an archer, but also because this build is really exciting for me.

I use to HATE elves, and hated playing them, mostly because I felt that got a lot of limelight they didn't deserve.
But then Pathfinder came out and made me feel alright about it.
They're important and all.

But not more than my favorite dwarves (who also can make good rogues if you're doing a melee rogue build or a total dungeon delver, as the dark vision makes you A PIMP when scouting, just choose a weapon (greataxe?) and stick with it.

 

[N'raac]

The other "loss" to the Rogue is the change to class skills. Everyone gets that same +3 bonus whenever they add a single rank to a class skill, and all they lose by not having a skill on their class list is a 3 point bonus. Plus, feats, archetypes and traits that add class skills to anyone's list. The Rogue's skill access didn't get reduced, but everyone else's was enhanced, so he loses what was previously a more significant advantage.