• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

Pathfinder 1E How is the rogue nerfed

So, put another way, because Pathfinder didn't start at the level of power creep as late edition 3.5 it was a nerf?


No. Bards were nerfed because bards were nerfed. Pathfinder Bardic Music is strictly worse than 3.5 Bardic Music at low level; Inspire Courage took a nerf by losing the lingering effect, and Fascinate took a huge nerf so it's now a weak effect that's resisted normally rather than a weak effect that's very hard to resist. And Bardic Lore has changed and IMO not in a way that helps the bard. Despite a lot of generic buffs such as at will cantrips and more flexible skills (but the Bard lost Listen), a low level PF Bard is about on a par with his core-3.5 rival.
 

log in or register to remove this ad


No. Bards were nerfed because bards were nerfed. Pathfinder Bardic Music is strictly worse than 3.5 Bardic Music at low level; Inspire Courage took a nerf by losing the lingering effect, and Fascinate took a huge nerf so it's now a weak effect that's resisted normally rather than a weak effect that's very hard to resist. And Bardic Lore has changed and IMO not in a way that helps the bard. Despite a lot of generic buffs such as at will cantrips and more flexible skills (but the Bard lost Listen), a low level PF Bard is about on a par with his core-3.5 rival.

Fascinate in 3.5e was broken. Save equal the performance DC? That's an average of DC 17 at first level but easily buffed to 19 with a masterwork instrument. Plus skill focus. My level 10 bard used to rock a perform of 25+d20 so the DC of fascinate was usually around 35.

The loss of lingering effects is annoying but made up by the fact a bard can inspire multiple times at level one. Likely 7 round, so three two-round fights.
 

Fascinate in 3.5e was broken. Save equal the performance DC? That's an average of DC 17 at first level but easily buffed to 19 with a masterwork instrument. Plus skill focus. My level 10 bard used to rock a perform of 25+d20 so the DC of fascinate was usually around 35.

The loss of lingering effects is annoying but made up by the fact a bard can inspire multiple times at level one. Likely 7 round, so three two-round fights.

Fascinate was broken, granted. But it also was very easy to break. The Pathfinder version is incredibly weak in all directions.

As for three two round fights, at that point the Bard would probably be better off simply not using bardic music unless he's not going to do anything at all useful with a weapon. Giving up a standard action (i.e. your attack) is massive - and a 10% DPR swing per person isn't that much unless you have a big party/retainers or a seriously twinked out fighter, especially not as the damage output is back-loaded. Psyching your guys up before the fight, a rolling fight, or a battle chant for an entire encampment are a whole different story. (For what it's worth, three round fights are probably where it starts to become worth it).
 

Fascinate was broken, granted. But it also was very easy to break. The Pathfinder version is incredibly weak in all directions.
Um... what?
The only change is the save.

Number of creatures. The same.
Effect (no actions and -4 on check senses). The same.
One attempt per 24 hours. The same.
Potential threats allow a new save. The same.
Obvious threats break it automatically. The same.

The only difference is instead of a save DC that goes up every level it goes up ever second level and there are far fewer ways of boosting the save.

As for three two round fights, at that point the Bard would probably be better off simply not using bardic music unless he's not going to do anything at all useful with a weapon. Giving up a standard action (i.e. your attack) is massive - and a 10% DPR swing per person isn't that much unless you have a big party/retainers or a seriously twinked out fighter, especially not as the damage output is back-loaded. Psyching your guys up before the fight, a rolling fight, or a battle chant for an entire encampment are a whole different story. (For what it's worth, three round fights are probably where it starts to become worth it).

At low levels, most fights are only going to last 2-3 rounds. And the bard, being super squishy with their 6-8hp, really shouldn't be getting up to the front lines, especially not before the fighter. Singing and then moving is a valid first round, followed by moving and attacking the second - allowing the more armoured characters a chance to get into position.

While the +1 attack & damage isn't much, at low levels you're not rocking a whole lot of attack bonuses, so the +1 to attack rolls might be a pretty nice increase. At higher levels, the attack bonus is less impressive but the damage bonus becomes more important as it applies to multiple attacks.

Regardless, the bard always had to give up their standard to sing. But in PF if they sing and suddenly the fight ends quickly due to a couple crits (or the fight being less impressive than expected) then they aren't stuck without their key class feature. They still have 3-4 rounds left.

What other changes hit the bard between 3.5e and PF?
Well, bardic knowledge is clarified. What did bardic knowledge do before? A bard "knows some relevant information about local notable people, legendary items, or noteworthy places."
While everyone treated it like bards could make a check for any other knowledge skill, it's actually pretty limited. Regions, gods, monsters, and historical events are not included (neither would be stories). It really just puts the onus of bardic knowldge checks onto the DM. There's no real guidelines or advice for what the check DC would be. Plus, very few modules every assumed bardic knowledge and so it was never really included.
PF changes it so the bard just makes knowledge checks untrained. So all the rules are right there. No special accommodation needs to be made for the bard.

Countersong is pretty much the same, but they also added a visual version (Distract) for illusions, which is a nice buff. While this does force bards to learn a second performance skill, their versatile performer ability at level 2 means they can ignore a couple skills.

Their spellcasting also got a bump, so they get 1st level spells at 1st level instead of 2nd. This is pretty sweet. And like all spellcasters, 0-level spells become at-will spells.

Their hit dice jump from a d6 to a d8. And their BAB and saves remain the same.
They still get 6+int skills. But instead of 24 + all Knowledges to choose from they
have 18+ all knowledges, meaning their skill points can go farther.

Plus at higher levels they get four more performances than the 3.5e bard, get the boost to inspire courage earlier,
 

Um... what?
The only change is the save.

Unclear phrasing. Fascinate as a condition is easy to break. Any hostile action will do it. Drawing a weapon, for example. Sure, it was highly likely to take effect if you tried it - but its power was limited by the fact its usefulness was very situational so was a niche ability. Now it's extremely situational and not terribly likely to work compared to any of the actually effective enchantments. Also it's taken a massive time nerf - down from the duration of the bard's performance to 1 round/level.

Which meant it used to be a nice tool for complex plans, with the ease of numerical success offset by the difficulty of getting it into a situation where it could work. You drop the bard off in the guard's barracks as part of an assassination to keep the reinforcements busy. Now a 20th level bard can only hold the barracks with fascinate for about three minutes and the save DC isn't that high so you can't have a bard holding a room at sane levels. This means there is no point using fascinate to enable plans, making it pure weak sauce.

Yes, the scaling was wrong. But to be useful for the sort of thing it should be, Fascinate needed to be really difficult to resist as the effect was so weak. If Pathfinder had actually bothered to understand the Bard and e.g. made Fascinate into a 15+(level/2)+Cha DC and instituted a rule saying "Every five rounds of fascinate takes one round of bardic performance" to enable minutes rather than seconds it would work properly.

At low levels, most fights are only going to last 2-3 rounds. And the bard, being super squishy with their 6-8hp, really shouldn't be getting up to the front lines, especially not before the fighter.

At low levels on the flanks in melee can often be the safest place to be except behind a solid wall. Goblins and Kobolds can focus fire on anyone not in melee. And calling a bard super-squishy is pushing it, especially in PF. Light armour is good and you can't afford something better than scale (which PF fortunately bumped by a point - it needed it) at 1st level.

Singing and then moving is a valid first round, followed by moving and attacking the second - allowing the more armoured characters a chance to get into position.

Sure. It just really isn't any different than throw something and move first round overall.
 

Unclear phrasing. Fascinate as a condition is easy to break. Any hostile action will do it. Drawing a weapon, for example. Sure, it was highly likely to take effect if you tried it - but its power was limited by the fact its usefulness was very situational so was a niche ability. Now it's extremely situational and not terribly likely to work compared to any of the actually effective enchantments. Also it's taken a massive time nerf - down from the duration of the bard's performance to 1 round/level.

Which meant it used to be a nice tool for complex plans, with the ease of numerical success offset by the difficulty of getting it into a situation where it could work. You drop the bard off in the guard's barracks as part of an assassination to keep the reinforcements busy. Now a 20th level bard can only hold the barracks with fascinate for about three minutes and the save DC isn't that high so you can't have a bard holding a room at sane levels. This means there is no point using fascinate to enable plans, making it pure weak sauce.

Yes, the scaling was wrong. But to be useful for the sort of thing it should be, Fascinate needed to be really difficult to resist as the effect was so weak. If Pathfinder had actually bothered to understand the Bard and e.g. made Fascinate into a 15+(level/2)+Cha DC and instituted a rule saying "Every five rounds of fascinate takes one round of bardic performance" to enable minutes rather than seconds it would work properly.
It's not 1rd/level, it's still the duration of the performance. The length of the performance has just shrunk. Which does hurt the potency of the ability, but using it to keep someone entranced for hours with no extra save was, again, broken.

Most of the time I ended up using fascinate while playing a bard, one or two rounds was usually enough. Given the limited numbers, fascinating entire rooms of people wasn't going to happen anyway.

Having every bardic performance work for the same duration save one is rather complicated and finicky, and would be a rule most people would miss. Plus, it would require a heck of a lot more thought for a power that you yourself describe as "extremely situational" (which it always was: drawing a sword always broke fascinate). Changing the non-combative extremely situational often forgotten bard power hardly counts as a "major nerf" that makes the entire class unplayable.

Sure. It just really isn't any different than throw something and move first round overall.
Yeah... Dex is usually a secondary or tertiary stat for bards at best, so at first level their BAB is pretty darn low. "Gee, I can shoot my shortbow and maybe hit that gnoll if I roll a '13' or better, or I can make the entire party better at hitting the gnoll". Or, given they likely have two first level spells, they could also grease the gnoll.

But, again, the choice between using the standard to attack or take an offensive action and buffing the party has not changed between 3e and PF. However, at higher levels, the PF bard can sing as a move and finally a swift action. Which is pretty darn awesome.
 



MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
but guys....do you even play bards?
Well I do, it is about the first class I try on every new edition I go. Though I tend to play them the wrong way it seems. Most of the time I play them with CHA->DEX->INT->WIS->STR->CON, though one time I dumped int (except on 4e as it doesn't work that way).

But the first time I played a PF bard it became apparent something was wrong, on 3.5 you didn't need to focuss so high on Int, Bardic knowledge worked well, you only losed between 2 and 3 points against fully trained people in knowledge checks, in PF Bardic lore is only good if you actually train knowledge skills (and it becomes moot by higher levels when you just become able to use all skills untrained, so there is no synergy between the abilities), and it becomes a high investment on skill points.

Versatile Performer is just as bad, while in principle being able to substitute a skill for others sounds good, many of the substituted skills are skills you are bound to train anyway from level one (Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense motive and Acrobatics). And having a hard coded mechanic to use perform on different ways hurts improvisation.

Fascinate, I really really lament the way it was nerfed, before it was a cool way to keep enemies from fleeing the battlefield, now it is a waste of your standard action, and IMO the removal of perform checks from it took away a lot of flavor. And with such a weakened Fascinate, Persuassion is harder to use.

On general the way they changed bardic performance just added extra bookepping for little real benefit.
 

Voidrunner's Codex

Remove ads

Top