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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Crazy Jerome" data-source="post: 5486670" data-attributes="member: 54877">I both agree and disagree with this, and not in a wishy-washy way, either. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" /> I agree that building on such elements would provide a lot of gaming groups with enough to really make this shine. The DM and players would have to really want it, and go after it, but that would often be enough. I disagree that this is a good way to do it from a design perspective. It is too tacked on, instead of integrated from level 1 forward. It is "horizontal" design when it should be "vertical". It is the same problem that fate points and other such constructs have. I've used such constructs in games, and they can help. But if they are not intrinsically tied into the reward cycle, then you have to stay after them to make them work: 1. Arcana Evolved or 3.5. The players pursue Hero points and action points, respectively, because they let you do extra stuff. In AE, you get them for being a great big hero. You use them when trying to be the great big hero falls completely flat. That is almost but not quite right. 2. Burning Wheel. The players pursue fate, persona, and deeds because fighting for what you believe is the only way for the character to improve a skill very much and with much speed (edge cases not withstanding).  It is not that the first way is bad. The negative side effects are rather slight, and it does produce some nice moments for those with the right attitude about them. It is merely so much less than what it could be. In my D&D, I'd rather have no such thing (and thus play old school style) or have something really thought through and robust, and thus play BW style. Ideally, in D&D, it would be optional. Otherwise, we get some muddled, weak, middle version that frequently turns into not heroic action, but saved as my "get out of jail free card", and about as exciting as playing that card in Monopoly.  Specifically, my objection along the above lines to paragon paths and epic destinies (and other similar things) is that they are trying too hard to be that middle ground. It would be better in my eyes if the whole bits were scrapped in favor of some paragon or epic thing that could develop in parallel with the fighting ability. It wouldn't even need to be the same rate as character advancement, either. If your epic destiny is to be a demi-god, start out that way. As you pursue your destiny, it unfolds. Or don't, and it doesn't.</blockquote>

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