How is the Wizard vs Warrior Balance Problem Handled in Fantasy Literature?

Iota

First Post
A lot of people agree that D&D has historically heavily favored spellcasters after about a third of the way thru leveling and the classes were drastically unbalanced at the endgame. I'm trying to brainstorm an approach to correcting this inbalance in a way that maybe makes more sense than the 4e "make everyone a Vancian caster" approach. So, I'm thinking of look at fantasy source material: the novels and epic tales that inspired fantasy roleplaying games in the first place.

So, since I don't have the time to read all the great fantasy literature in one setting, I thought I'd ask everyone here:

How have you seen warior characters in fantasy books overcome spellcasters?

I recently read a Conan story where Conan's encounter with a wizard was a bit anticlimatic - he just threw a dagger at him and killed him in one shot while the wizard was trying to cast a spell. So, in that case, spellcasting probably took more than the typical "Standard Action" and the wizard had *very* low Hit Points and no protective magic in place (even though he was anticipating the encounter).
 
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Stormonu

Legend
vulnerability and rarity tends to do it.

The typical wizard is a greybeard whose spent most of his life studying musty old tomes (I don't remember "young" wizards coming along until the introduction of Raistlin, really - I mean, the starting age for a wizard in 1E was about 55 years old). This, and other factors tend to present wizards as frail.

Also, characters such as Conan may face hundreds of warriors in a given story, but likely only face one wizard in that same story. Wizards seem to be like ninjas; if you face one, they're a badass - if its a cabal, they die cheap (and are rarely ppowerful).
 

That's a bit of a pet peeve of mine.

A lot of people agree that D&D has historically heavily favored spellcasters after about a third of the way thru leveling and the classes we drastically unbalanced at the endgame. I'm trying to brainstorm an approach to correcting this inbalance in a way that maybe makes more sense than the 4e "make everyone a Vancian caster" approach. So, I'm thinking of look at fantasy source material: the novels and epic tales that inspired fantasy roleplaying games in the first place.

So, since I don't have the time to read all the great fantasy literature in one setting, I thought I'd ask everyone here:

How have you seen warior characters in fantasy books overcome spellcasters?

I recently read a Conan story where Conan's encounter with a wizard was a bit anticlimatic - he just threw a dagger at him and killed him in one shot while the wizard was trying to cast a spell. So, in that case, spellcasting probably took more than the typical "Standard Action" and the wizard had *very* low Hit Points and no protective magic in place (even though he was anticipating the encounter).

Usually the problem isn't dealt with. Lots of fantasy novels have really bad writing this way.

Wizards usually come in two flavors: very weak, and very strong.

I'll use the Warcraft novel series as an example, but this applies to nearly any fantasy literature you care to read.

Very weak wizards can maybe toss three magic darts a day. For instance, in The Last Guardian, Khadgar could just barely pull that off. When he and "warrior" (assassin) Garona went wandering, she had to do all the work. Khadgar once managed to bluff an orc shaman or warlock with his weak tricks (his opponent was similarly pathetic). I don't even remember how effective his magic dart was, but since he never killed anything with it, I think not. He did manage to kill one opponent... with a sword.

Very strong wizards can cast one powerful spell a day, and their allies get frustrated with their inability to not pull their weight the rest of the day.

In Tides of Darkness, Khadgar summoned a powerful storm when his army was facing an orc army. Sure, it was effective, but when more orcs came, he was "tapped out". (Seriously, using all his mana at once?)

In one of the Warcraft comics, a mage was taking his time casting a spell. When his allies complained, he pointed out (correctly) that it takes a lot of energy to pull lightning out of a cloudless sky. (He did, in fact, kill a lot of enemies.) None of his allies pointed out that he could have cast spells that actually made sense in that situation!

In a recent non-Chosen (thank heavens!) novel I read by Ed Greenwood, the heroes were an adventuring party of five or six. They had a mage who probably only cast four spells over four hundred pages. Making matters worse, I swear the book only took place over two adventuring days, so the mage could only recharge once, and despite casting mid-level spells seemed to have only three or four spell slots.

And in the first book of the Kingless Land series, Greenwood's female mage, while seemingly quite powerful, was found and recruited by the other heroes while low on magic and never got to recharge. I think the one time she actually got some rest, she got drunk, laid, or both. Whatever she was doing, it wasn't restful sleep.

This is the author who writes Chosen novels, like Elminster in Myth Drannor, where some of the combat scenes were actually really cool to read, but you knew Elminster would always overpower his opponent. Guess he couldn't adapt to either side of the scale. But then, he's not alone.

In a non-Greenwood novel I read (I don't even recall if it was FR or Eberron) one of the villains was a wizard, but not a combat mage. Apparently he didn't have the Concentration skill. Fair enough. However, that doesn't excuse not going inside his house before casting Teleport to escape. He tried to cast it twice, and each time took an arrow which spoiled his spellcasting. (The wizard was fairly intelligent; the obvious tactical advantages of cover shouldn't have escaped him.) I could go on. And on. And on. And kind of did, actually.

So in short, even powerful wizards seem to get nerfed in fantasy. The powerful ones just act stupidly. There are very few, if any, moderately-powered wizards.

I wonder how much influence Gandalf has. Even today there are DMs who don't want wizards to cast spells often for fear of being attacked by "dark things". So Gandalf generally use only weak magic, but sometimes could really dish it out. (No, he didn't summon the wave at Rivendell, he just touched it up.) He was more of a ritual-using heroic sage, really.

A counter-example or two, both from anime: Record of Lodoss War, which is actually based on a DnD campaign. The wizard and cleric both cast spells frequently, and neither totally rock their opponents either... and Slayers, where wizards cast very powerful spells very frequently. (In fact, other than "boss battles", no battle is any real challenge since Lina's fireballs are strong enough to destroy clock towers.)
 
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Mark CMG

Creative Mountain Games
In genre fiction most main characters are archetypes and most other characters are plot devices, and plot devices do as they're told by the author. ;)
 

Tinker Gnome

Explorer
I have noticed that even in various novels based on DnD settings, magic users tend to either simply not be present as a main character, or only ever cast very weak spells (Level three spells at the highest, this is in 3.X terms).

Even Raistlin did not do much other than ping enemies with magic missiles and cast a fireball or two. He did cast the time travel spell, which is Ninth level, but he does not often use powerful offensive magic. Although, to be fair, Raistlin usually seems to prefer being subtle unless he has no choice.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Ways I've seen:

  1. Powerful magic is slow, requiring some kind of ritual
  2. There is no such thing as combat/offensive magic
  3. Magic requires mana, which is not a resource anyone has personally in any abundance, so it must be gathered to cast a spell, which takes time and effort...and no mana = no spells
  4. Element of surprise
  5. Magic has limited or no effect on certain materials
  6. Certain substances or rituals can make a person temporarily or permanently incapable of casting magic
  7. Powerful magic is exceedingly rare
  8. Spellcasting is not dependable
  9. Offensive/direct magic requires a "truname" or some physical token of the person targeted
  10. Magic only affects inanimate objects directly
  11. Spellcasters must have their concentration or power reserves overtaxed
  12. Spellcasting requires a focus- amulet, orb, wand, staff, totem, etc.- that, if removed from the caster's control, renders them powerless.
And so forth.
 
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Mercurius

Legend
I was dabbling with a 4E house rule for this but, like most of my house rule ideas, it never got past the idea phase (here's a thread I started on it).

First, let me get something clear: wizards SHOULD be more powerful, imo. Otherwise, what's the point? But with that power should come some kind of vulnerability or a special quality for non-spellcasters.

In the thread above I posited that spellcasters should be more powerful, but non-spellcasters should be able to twist the threads of fate in some way. Let's say that one of the costs for being a wizard (arcane) or cleric (divine) is that you essentially swap your fate/luck/karma for power.

So while I like the fact that all 4E classes have a lot of options I think something has been lost when a high level wizard is no more powerful than a high level fighter or rogue. Or rather, I think the type of power they have should be better differentiated so that the net effect isn't essentially the same, as it is in 4E (e.g. all strikers are basically the same, just with different fluff).

In terms of story, I think the difference boils down to the Heroic Act. Spellcasters wield raw power - they cast bolts of lightning or divine strikes from above to devastating effect, or they use their magic to strange and powerful effects or healings. But they don't, or rarely, make a Heroic Act - which is exemplified by Conan tossing that dagger, or Drizzt his scimitar at the ceiling to kill Icingdeath (if I remember correctly). The stuff of legend, in other words.
 

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