Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 5490054" data-attributes="member: 42582">Nor can I. But the post is great.And here we see what is, in my view, the fundamental issue - the clash between game and metagame.Within the imaginary world it is true, as Dannyalcatraz says, that Batman is not supernatural. Whereas Hercules is.But relative to the realworld it is true, as KM says, that Batman is just as much a fantasy as is Hercules.Thus, when KM says:The response is: from the point of view of the real world, the gaming table, you are correct; but from the point of view of the imaginary world in which Batman exists, than Danny is correct.So if you want a game in which a player can play Batman, the rules of the game have to make it possible for fantastic results to occur, even though they are not, in the gameworld, supernatural results. Mechanics that make the gameworld be a fantastic one, without being a supernatural one.And the standard way to achieve this is via metagame mechanics - that is, mechanics which allow a player to change things in the gameworld without the mechanic actually expressing or tightly modelling some particular action by that player's PC. That is, non-simulationist mechanics.KM gives a hypothetical example: 4e has these sorts of powers for martial classes. They are widely derided - Come and Get It being the most common target. Of course there are legitimate questions to be asked about whether Come and Get It is or is not the best-designed metagame mechanic of all time, but the frequent objections to it don't turn on its merits as a metagame mechanic, but rather are objections to the very idea of the player of a fighter having access to this sort of mechanic.So, when KM says:I agree, with two exceptions: hit points and saving throws. And I get the impression that many 3E players don't treat hit points and saving throws as metagame anymore (although in AD&D, or at least 1st ed, this is quite clear) and instead as literal "meat" and literal "toughness".4e tried to take D&D into new territory in this respect, but instead of improving on the experiment and coming up with powers that are richer or more interesting than Come and Get It, the impression from Essentials is that WotC is retreating again, back to the D&D tradition that the only fantastic powers allowed - other than hit points and saving throws-  are those which are supernatural within the gameworld.</blockquote>

Verification