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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Raven Crowking" data-source="post: 5499574" data-attributes="member: 18280">Is Jeanne a paladin?  Did she have those powers?  I thought we were talking about the historic person.BUT, if we are talking about a fantasty world person, then, no, it isn't so different.  In fact, there are some Spider-Man comics that suggest that Spidey gained his powers mystically from Anansi, and that the radioactive spider bite was just the manifestation of the same.IOW, Peter Parker was a normal human until he got bitten, when he got superhuman powers.  In this light, our fantasy Jeanne was a normal human until she got touched, and got her fancy powers.Neither is a counter-example of how a character cannot have "previously was a normal person (turnip farmer or otherwise) as a background".  The game can handle it very, very easily.Lets not.Or, if you like to, you can go upthread and see that all the subsequent questions in this post have been answered, many more than once.To me Hussar?  This is why the conversation can't go forward.  The definition of "human" has gone from "human" to "normal human".  And when "normal human" is shown to be perfectly fine, it jumps to "Average Joe".  We are a long way now from claiming that our 1st level fighter is "superhuman".Without realizing it, perhaps, you have conceded Danny Alcatraz's point, because he never said Average Joe.  You have brought your argument down below the bar of what you are arguing against!  <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/laugh.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing    :lol:" data-shortname=":lol:" />Even then, though, it is blindingly obvious that any edition without point buy can produce a level 1 fighter with average stats, and with as few hit points as an average commoner.  Likewise, commoners can be created with one or more above-average stats, access to minor spell use (see N1), a bonus to hit that bumps them up to equivilency with a 1st level fighter, or whatever else the DM desires.Your current "Average Joe" argument, in some editions, then relies upon said fighter being slightly more skilled at arms than the average person, which, unless "skilled at arms" is somehow more of an indicator than "skilled at milling", "skilled at running an inn", or "skilled at taking care of horses", pretty much prevents a wide swath of the campaign world from being an "Average Joe".  Again, let's look at what could be created using the 1e PHB for a moment, using a standard 3d6 set, roll once.  Our level 1 fighter is skilled in four weapons, and can wear armour.  He has 10-sided hit dice, giving a range of 1-10 hit points, plus any Con modifier.  He has a 0.5% chance of qualifying for exceptional Strength (most fighters will not).  On a 16-18 Con, he gains a extra bump to his hit points over what other characters get; there is a 4.7% chance of this occurring.Meanwhile, our peasant farmer who is in good shape can also wear armour, can also use weapons, and has a range of 1-8 hit points.It is quite easy to imagine rolls that result in a fighter whose only point of superiority is roughly a 5% better chance to hit opponents due to using the fighter attack matrixes.  Using the Secondary Skill table from the DMG, there is even a chance that his background is that of a farmer.Let me repeat that:  Using the Secondary Skill table from the DMG, there is even a chance that his background is that of a farmer.Now, let me ask you a question:  Are you actually saying that you can see no way in which our 1e fighter could legitimately have a background of turnip farmer?  RC</blockquote>

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