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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Raven Crowking" data-source="post: 5501206" data-attributes="member: 18280">I think it's pretty simple to keep up.  A claim was made that a Ftr 1 could be a regular guy just off the turnip wagon, and a counter-claim was made that it could not be so, in any edition.Everything else is an exploration of that counter-claim.I think, personally, that, because characters start more powerful in 4e than in earlier editions, it was taken as some form of dire insult to suggest (or admit) that some editions might do "turnip-farmer-turned-PC" better (where better is defined only as statistically closer to a turnip farmer).At this point, rather than say, "Yeah, X is focused on Y, whereas Z was focused on B", all rationality went out the window, and we had more than one claim that a Ftr 1 must be superhuman (or words to that effect).And, AFAICT, that must be is the only point of contention.Therefore, you have people putting forth various counter-examples, and putting forth a counter-example (even if it differs from other counter-examples) isn't shifting the goalposts.And you have various other people simply ignoring whatever counter-example doesn't fit the framework that must be.Nah.I have no expectation of how things should look.  In most games that I play, PCs are exceptional simply by being PCs.  In RCFG, I even came up with a term to describe this:  "Champion Class Creature".  But I know that things do not have to be this way.  And even the Champion Class Creature nomenclature wouldn't prevent a GM from framing a game in RCFG where the PCs were ex-farmers with mundane abilities just off the turnip truck.  Heck, as many have pointed out on EN World in the past, even abilities that seem clearly supernatural to me (either in their execution or implications, such as Come and Get It) don't require that the people playing the game think of their characters as superhuman.  They are quite capable of making what might seem a supernatural ability instead conform to the fantasy reality of the campaign setting.What you prefer should have nothing to do with what you concede to be possible.RC</blockquote>

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