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<blockquote data-quote="ProfessorCirno" data-source="post: 5501554" data-attributes="member: 65637">Whoh!&nbsp; Stop there.&nbsp; Here's the problem.There is where the logic train derails and loses sight of Fantasy Station.&nbsp; At this point you are no longer playing a fantasy game - you are playing a magic game.&nbsp; Which is great for something like Ars Magica, but that's not what D&amp;D is.&nbsp; This isn't a verisimilitude argument, and god have I grown to hate how that word is slung around.Here's the thing: the idea of secularized magic is an incredibly modern phenomenon.&nbsp; Magic was the supernatural throughout most of human history and mythology.&nbsp; And not the other way around - there was far more supernatural then just &quot;guy casting a spell,&quot; but that guy casting a spell was tied directly to divine or otherworldly power.Fantasy up until the secularization of mythology was almost entirely about the divine.&nbsp; Both &quot;wizard&quot; types and &quot;warrior&quot; types were heavily intertwined with otherworldly power and figures.&nbsp; Wizards weren't wizards, they were clerics.&nbsp; Even the name wizard has it's origins in the Zoroastrian Magi, the &quot;priests&quot; of a specific religion.When you say &quot;only magic can alter the rules&quot; you aren't upholding any verisimilitude.&nbsp; You're only upholding an incredibly bizarre idea that only one specific group of supernatural power can change the rules and the others can't for arbitrary and undefined reasons.&nbsp; If there are wizards in your game - figures who by definition are imbued with supernatural power - and they are PCs, then you either the non-wizards should also be supernatural, or you should just play Ars Magica, because that's what you want.I'm not slamming on Ars Magica, either!&nbsp; But that's precisely the style of gameplay you seem to want - where wizards rule the world and non-wizards aren't really PCs.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="ProfessorCirno, post: 5501554, member: 65637"] Whoh! Stop there. Here's the problem. There is where the logic train derails and loses sight of Fantasy Station. At this point you are no longer playing a fantasy game - you are playing a [I]magic[/I] game. Which is great for something like Ars Magica, but that's not what D&D is. This isn't a verisimilitude argument, and god have I grown to hate how that word is slung around. Here's the thing: the idea of secularized magic is an [B]incredibly[/B] modern phenomenon. Magic [B]was[/B] the supernatural throughout most of human history and mythology. And not the other way around - there was far more supernatural then just "guy casting a spell," but that guy casting a spell was tied directly to divine or otherworldly power. Fantasy up until the secularization of mythology was almost entirely about the divine. Both "wizard" types and "warrior" types were heavily intertwined with otherworldly power and figures. Wizards weren't wizards, they were clerics. Even the name wizard has it's origins in the Zoroastrian Magi, the "priests" of a specific religion. When you say "only magic can alter the rules" you aren't upholding any verisimilitude. You're only upholding an incredibly bizarre idea that only one specific group of supernatural power can change the rules and the others can't for arbitrary and undefined reasons. If there are wizards in your game - figures who by definition are imbued with supernatural power - and they are PCs, then you either the non-wizards should also be supernatural, or you should just play Ars Magica, because that's [I]what you want[/I]. I'm not slamming on Ars Magica, either! But that's precisely the style of gameplay you seem to want - where wizards rule the world and non-wizards [I]aren't really PCs.[/I] [/QUOTE]

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