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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ultimatecalibur" data-source="post: 5502975" data-attributes="member: 59539">There is a synonym for "well-designed" that is used more often now: Optimized. And that is what those 2 fighters you described are. Those were not builds you could generate in 10 minutes. They also had weakness out the wazoo. So they were not standard run of the mill characters, they were hyper-focused specialists built out stuff from a dozen different books.At the same point your average wizard had been granting limited wishes for 2 levels already.What you are describing is system mastery. Your players had enough system mastery that they could make fighters effective, but if they had used an equivalent level of mastery on a cleric, druid, wizard or sorcerer they would have ended up with characters who far outstripped them in power often with fewer vulnerabilities.</blockquote>