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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5503014" data-attributes="member: 87792">Grey Mouser is, as is so common, almost impossible to represent in older editions of D&amp;D but trivial in 4e.&nbsp; He didn't have six-second combat magic that was mandatory of old spellcasters.&nbsp; He had enough training to be a ritual caster and was therefore a spellcaster.&nbsp; But he fought as a thief.&nbsp;&nbsp;One more ritual caster.&nbsp; Something that simply didn't work in classic D&amp;D.&nbsp;Yup.&nbsp; Getting back to the thread title, the normal way the Wizard/Warrior Balance Problem is handled in Fantasy Literature is the same way the Warrior/Dragon Balance Problem is handled in Fantasy Literature.&nbsp; Wizards are antagonists or support NPCs not PCs.&nbsp;I thought that was Fafhrd/Grey Mouser.&nbsp;&nbsp;That D&amp;D spellcasting is D&amp;D spellcasting and has precious little to do with non D&amp;D fantasy literature.&nbsp;&nbsp;Except he always screws them up...&nbsp; Also he's a 4e Ritual Caster, not any form of classic D&amp;D (i.e. OD&amp;D/AD&amp;D/3.X) Caster. &nbsp;&nbsp;Can he pull it off (or indeed any real combat magic) in 6 seconds?&nbsp; If not, classic D&amp;D casting is not a good model.&nbsp;&nbsp;And no one is disputing that.&nbsp; The problem isn't whether the game is gritty or high magic.&nbsp; It's in the thread title.&nbsp; The Wizard vs Warrior Balance problem.&nbsp; WHFRP doesn't have this issue; fighters are gritty - but magic will blow back in your face.&nbsp; Exalted doesn't have this problem; magic is powerful, but so are fighters.&nbsp; The problem is The Wizard vs Warrior Balance.&nbsp; You want warriors to play gritty and wizards to play near-effortlessly.&nbsp;&nbsp;And I don't care.&nbsp; Low magic is fun.&nbsp; The problem is the mix of the low magic fighter and the high magic wizard.&nbsp; Play WHFRP 2e for a bit.&nbsp; Wizards there don't like casting spells because they backfire and have side effects.&nbsp; Or open yourself to demonic posession.&nbsp;&nbsp;Mundane fighter who is just that good: Knight.&nbsp; Super-heroic demigod: Fighter.&nbsp;&nbsp;And a good one makes this irrelevant.&nbsp;&nbsp;Now I see your problem.&nbsp; Your wizards were thinking like fighters.&nbsp; High saves don't even win in combat.&nbsp;&nbsp;You mean a fighter that was entirely twinked out, right?&nbsp; Because at level 15 they had 8 feats from being a fighter.&nbsp;&nbsp; Assume weapon spec/greater weapon spec/weapon focus/greater weapon focus, and an exotic weapon as 5.&nbsp; Iron Will as a 6th to have a chance with the will save.&nbsp; That's two spare feats - unless you used a lot of non-core material (when wizards should be running complete rings round non-casters).&nbsp;&nbsp;Simple question: Why was the wizard rolling straight initiative against the fighter archer?&nbsp; Not simply ensorcelling him in the surprise round?&nbsp; (And if you say it was more likely that the fighter got surprise, the wizard's hat needs painting with a D).&nbsp;Why were the dragons letting them get that close?&nbsp; And pre-3.5.&nbsp; 15th level.&nbsp; Hasted spellcasters?&nbsp;If the wizards knew what they were doing, yes.&nbsp;&nbsp;So you yourself admit that your fighters were good at min/max.&nbsp; And from everything you've said, your wizards weren't.&nbsp; From everything you've said, your wizards were trying to play the fighters' game.&nbsp; Not their own.&nbsp; (Just as well; wizards can do useful things in the fighters' game - but fighters can't compete with wizards at theirs).</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 5503014, member: 87792"] Grey Mouser is, as is so common, almost impossible to represent in older editions of D&D but trivial in 4e. He didn't have six-second combat magic that was mandatory of old spellcasters. He had enough training to be a ritual caster and was therefore a spellcaster. But he fought as a thief. One more ritual caster. Something that simply didn't work in classic D&D. Yup. Getting back to the thread title, [I]the normal way the Wizard/Warrior Balance Problem is handled in Fantasy Literature is the same way the Warrior/Dragon Balance Problem is handled in Fantasy Literature. Wizards are antagonists or support NPCs not PCs.[/I] I thought that was Fafhrd/Grey Mouser. That D&D spellcasting is D&D spellcasting and has precious little to do with non D&D fantasy literature. Except he always screws them up... Also he's a 4e Ritual Caster, not any form of classic D&D (i.e. OD&D/AD&D/3.X) Caster. Can he pull it off (or indeed any real combat magic) in 6 seconds? If not, classic D&D casting is not a good model. [I]And no one is disputing that[/I]. The problem isn't whether the game is gritty or high magic. It's in the thread title. The Wizard vs Warrior Balance problem. WHFRP doesn't have this issue; fighters are gritty - but magic will blow back in your face. Exalted doesn't have this problem; magic is powerful, but so are fighters. The problem is [B]The Wizard vs Warrior Balance[/B]. You want warriors to play gritty and wizards to play near-effortlessly. [I]And I don't care[/I]. Low magic is fun. [B]The problem is the mix of the low magic fighter and the high magic wizard.[/B] Play WHFRP 2e for a bit. Wizards there don't like casting spells because they backfire and have side effects. Or open yourself to demonic posession. Mundane fighter who is just that good: Knight. Super-heroic demigod: Fighter. And a good one makes this irrelevant. Now I see your problem. Your wizards were thinking like fighters. High saves don't even win in combat. You mean a fighter that was entirely twinked out, right? Because at level 15 they had 8 feats from being a fighter. Assume weapon spec/greater weapon spec/weapon focus/greater weapon focus, and an exotic weapon as 5. Iron Will as a 6th to have a chance with the will save. That's two spare feats - unless you used a lot of non-core material (when wizards should be running complete rings round non-casters). Simple question: Why was the wizard rolling straight initiative against the fighter archer? Not simply ensorcelling him in the surprise round? (And if you say it was more likely that the fighter got surprise, the wizard's hat needs painting with a D). Why were the dragons letting them get that close? And pre-3.5. 15th level. [I]Hasted[/I] spellcasters? If the wizards knew what they were doing, [B]yes.[/B] So you yourself admit that your fighters were good at min/max. And from everything you've said, your wizards [I]weren't[/I]. From everything you've said, your wizards were trying to play the fighters' game. Not their own. (Just as well; wizards can do useful things in the fighters' game - but fighters can't compete with wizards at theirs). [/QUOTE]

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