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How is the Wizard vs Warrior Balance Problem Handled in Fantasy Literature?
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<blockquote data-quote="triqui" data-source="post: 5514203" data-attributes="member: 57948"><p>Which makes my point get back: if Magic is Powerful and Can do Anything is the norm, it permeates everything. EVERY PC and NPC *has* to be a magic user, use a magic user hireling, or buy magic items from a magic user just to be able to survive. Hence, you can't build a NPC Pirate that mistrust magic, or simply that ignores it. He *needs* to know *what* a scry spell is becouse he *needs* to have a non-detection device beforehand.</p><p></p><p></p><p> When those consequences arise, yes. When they dont, no. Go back to my example: players might be a group of Robin Hood outlaws, so they might not care at all about their evidence been believed by the king. Once they know who killed the countess, they can act in consequence.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Yet if the local Inquisitor point the Count with his finger and shouts "Devil-Whorshiper!!", the Count is hanged. And that does not address AT ALL the fact of magic divination being a plot buster. At *best* it might be a counter for *that* example. The Players might be investigating who killed the farmer's wife, and discover it was the farmer (who has 0 political power). The problem is that magic divination crush plots. That the plot *might* be built in a fashion that even with magic divinations, players need other actions, only means Magic *forces* the DM to build some plots instead of others. No other aspect of the game removes the narrative control from the narrator such as magic does.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>But I'm not talking exclusivelly about games (and thus a ruleset). The OP was talking about fiction. In Fiction, if magic exist to a level where it can "do anything", then everything else is pointless. Why would I hire a (mundane) assasin to kill a king? The king is going to be ressurrected, and will have magical defenses to protect himself. Only a magical assasin (with something like soul-trap) can kill him. That's why on most fiction (bassically, any that's not D&D based like Elminster series are), magic is non-existant, is a plot device, or do minor non plot-busting and shortcut effects. Gandalf did not teleport to Mordor. Witch King does not teleport to Frodo. Thulsa Doom does not Teleport to Conan. They have powerful effects (like casting circle of protection) than Martial Characters can't do. But those effects do ^not^ become into plotbusting, and is not far beyond of what a Martial Character can do (Glorfindel can't cast "circle of protection against Balrogs", but killed one with a club and a dagger, so the effect, while vissually different, isn't mechanically unique. It does not put Wizards beyond Warriors, given same level. Glorfindel is on par with Gandalf)</p><p></p><p>Just to point: get to 3e rules. Add up the cost of a fleet of galleons, a bunch of camels, their sailors, drivers, some guards, and their food, for a couple of months. Now compare it with the cost of making a permanent "circle of teleport" from Florentia to China. And tell me why on hell would a rich florentian trader use any kind of mundane caravan to the Silk Road.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="triqui, post: 5514203, member: 57948"] Which makes my point get back: if Magic is Powerful and Can do Anything is the norm, it permeates everything. EVERY PC and NPC *has* to be a magic user, use a magic user hireling, or buy magic items from a magic user just to be able to survive. Hence, you can't build a NPC Pirate that mistrust magic, or simply that ignores it. He *needs* to know *what* a scry spell is becouse he *needs* to have a non-detection device beforehand. When those consequences arise, yes. When they dont, no. Go back to my example: players might be a group of Robin Hood outlaws, so they might not care at all about their evidence been believed by the king. Once they know who killed the countess, they can act in consequence. Yet if the local Inquisitor point the Count with his finger and shouts "Devil-Whorshiper!!", the Count is hanged. And that does not address AT ALL the fact of magic divination being a plot buster. At *best* it might be a counter for *that* example. The Players might be investigating who killed the farmer's wife, and discover it was the farmer (who has 0 political power). The problem is that magic divination crush plots. That the plot *might* be built in a fashion that even with magic divinations, players need other actions, only means Magic *forces* the DM to build some plots instead of others. No other aspect of the game removes the narrative control from the narrator such as magic does. But I'm not talking exclusivelly about games (and thus a ruleset). The OP was talking about fiction. In Fiction, if magic exist to a level where it can "do anything", then everything else is pointless. Why would I hire a (mundane) assasin to kill a king? The king is going to be ressurrected, and will have magical defenses to protect himself. Only a magical assasin (with something like soul-trap) can kill him. That's why on most fiction (bassically, any that's not D&D based like Elminster series are), magic is non-existant, is a plot device, or do minor non plot-busting and shortcut effects. Gandalf did not teleport to Mordor. Witch King does not teleport to Frodo. Thulsa Doom does not Teleport to Conan. They have powerful effects (like casting circle of protection) than Martial Characters can't do. But those effects do ^not^ become into plotbusting, and is not far beyond of what a Martial Character can do (Glorfindel can't cast "circle of protection against Balrogs", but killed one with a club and a dagger, so the effect, while vissually different, isn't mechanically unique. It does not put Wizards beyond Warriors, given same level. Glorfindel is on par with Gandalf) Just to point: get to 3e rules. Add up the cost of a fleet of galleons, a bunch of camels, their sailors, drivers, some guards, and their food, for a couple of months. Now compare it with the cost of making a permanent "circle of teleport" from Florentia to China. And tell me why on hell would a rich florentian trader use any kind of mundane caravan to the Silk Road. [/QUOTE]
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