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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 5520635" data-attributes="member: 42582">Well, I think there is the alternative to AD&D (and probably 3E) which (in my view) Basic (but not Expert) adopted, and 4e has also adopted - which is to treat the sociology and demography of the gameworld as backdrop rather than as a game element that is to be used on a par with the rest of the game mechanics.(Yes, I'm repeating myself from upthread. But I really feel that this is an underappreciated difference in the contribution that the gameworld makes to play!)I think believability in fantasy settings is grossly overrated. Tolkien's Middle Earth is not remotely believable. The Shire has material living standards comparable to 18th or early 19th century England, although the latter was a centre of world commerce and productiong and the former is a small, autarkic community. Gondor appears to have material living standards and economic power at least comparable to the major European kingdoms of the high mediaeval period, without any sort of comprable economic base. Where are the villages and towns that support Minas Tirith (they certainly don't seem to be passed through during the Ride of the Rohirrim)?Exactly the same sorts of points can be made about REH's Hyborian Age, which is a self-conscious pastiche of various times and places intended solely to provide an evocative backdrop for the Conan stories.I think there is nothing wrong with handwaving. In a game system which includes spells like Continual Light, all it needs is an understanding at the table that no one will push the boundaries that might make the handwaving fail to do its job. (Much like the understanding that no one will theorise too hard about the dungeon's ecology, or the Underdark's impossible economy - how is the Vault of the Drow richer than any surface city given its such economically umpromising geography? - or about where and how often their PCs go to the toilet.)Once the game makes the setting another element in the game that the PCs are expected to use alongside (or as part of) the mechanics, then I agree that things change. This is part of why I'm not a big fan of domain-type rules, at least of the classic AD&D/Expert variety. They suddenly make sociology and economics matter to the game,  bringing an end to the handwaving and encouraging players to break the gameworld in all the ways that you (Hussar) are talking about.</blockquote>

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