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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5521943" data-attributes="member: 87792">It's an only slightly hyperbolic claim.&nbsp; And happens to be quite true once he gets Gate and decides to gate in a Solar.&nbsp;&nbsp;Stop right there.&nbsp; The drow might have spell resistance, but that should not even slow a prepared wizard.&nbsp; The spells mentioned for taking out drow (Evard's Black Tentacles, Glitterdust) ignore spell resistance.&nbsp; So all the drow having spell resistance does is means you need to prepare the spellbook.&nbsp; Your objection here is irrelevant.&nbsp;&nbsp;Unless the wizard takes a 5 foot step or is simply not in melee.&nbsp; Is your question really &quot;How can a wizard take out five drow when the drow are already surrounding him and have their swords to his throat?&quot;&nbsp; Your objection here is irrelevant.&nbsp;&nbsp;A counterspelling wizard?&nbsp; Really?&nbsp; One who just happens to have prepared the same spell as the PC wizard?&nbsp; And to see him casting?&nbsp; Unless the PC wizard is deliberately giving the drow a chance your objection here is, once again, irrelevant.&nbsp;Sure.&nbsp; If they start with their swords pressed against his throat.&nbsp; If not, and the wizard gets the drop on them, they are in trouble.&nbsp; The wizard might not necessarily win. But start off with the wizard flying and buffing himself with greater invisibility.&nbsp; Then casting Black Tentacles.&nbsp; The drow are grappled and at a huge disadvantage.&nbsp; They can't see the wizard and don't know where he is.&nbsp; Their wizard is not going to escape if he doesn't have spells he can cast without somatic components and without material components - the difference in grapple checks is huge.&nbsp; The tentacle's just going to slowly crush him.&nbsp; One down.&nbsp; (Even the L10 Str 22 fighter is trying to escape at a disadvantage).&nbsp;And the wizard was the dangerous one.&nbsp; Non-spellcasters are simple.&nbsp; Trap them in with a wall of force and drop a cloudkill on them.&nbsp; With tentacles already in there&nbsp; and the wall they aren't going to escape.&nbsp; Their spell resistance is worth nothing - it doesn't work on any of the spells you've just cast.&nbsp; (The real question is how long it will take the Cleric to escape the Black tentacles and whether he is likely to successfully dispel magic).&nbsp;Will this work against every group?&nbsp; 100% of the time?&nbsp; No.&nbsp; No more than a fighter will always hit.&nbsp; But assuming the already invisible and flying wizard gets the drop on the drow it stands a good chance.&nbsp; Which fits yor challenge.&nbsp;And that's assuming you take defeat to mean kill, not defeat to mean bypass.&nbsp; A simple flight + invisibility or teleport will work to bypass the drow.&nbsp;&nbsp;You mean monsters with an anti-magic eye?&nbsp; Why do I think that that wasn't chosen at random.&nbsp;&nbsp;And this thread is about the Wizard vs Warrior Balance.&nbsp; Power is relative.&nbsp; And relatively, the wizards, clerics, and druids have a lot of it.&nbsp; Relatively non-casters don't.&nbsp;&nbsp;So you yourself admit that wizards win and other classes don't.&nbsp; A telling admission.&nbsp;But you have my motivation completely backwards.&nbsp; I want to play a wizard.&nbsp; However, if I play a mid-high level wizard in 3.X I feel dirty.&nbsp; I feel as if I've started using cheat codes.&nbsp; I want to play a wizard class that feels challenging and I want everyone else at the table to have fun too.&nbsp; I do not want to leave the DM in a situation where they have three choices - challenge my character, challenge everyone else and give me a very easy job, or set anti-magic fields everywhere.&nbsp; Even my low level 4e wizard is giving my DM headaches (but then so does my 4e monk and my 4e warlord).&nbsp;My second motivation is that I like upending situations and scenarios but I want to feel a sense of accomplishment. The overwhelming out of combat power of the 3.X wizard takes that away from me.&nbsp; It feels cheap.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 5521943, member: 87792"] It's an only slightly hyperbolic claim. And happens to be quite true once he gets [I]Gate[/I] and decides to gate in a Solar. Stop right there. The drow might have spell resistance, but that should not even slow a prepared wizard. The spells mentioned for taking out drow (Evard's Black Tentacles, Glitterdust) ignore spell resistance. So all the drow having spell resistance does is means you need to prepare the spellbook. Your objection here is irrelevant. Unless the wizard takes a 5 foot step or is simply not in melee. Is your question really "How can a wizard take out five drow [I]when the drow are already surrounding him and have their swords to his throat?"[/I] Your objection here is irrelevant. A counterspelling wizard? [I]Really[/I]? One who just happens to have prepared the same spell as the PC wizard? And to see him casting? Unless the PC wizard is deliberately giving the drow a chance your objection here is, once again, irrelevant. Sure. [I]If they start with their swords pressed against his throat[/I]. If not, and the wizard gets the drop on them, they are in trouble. The wizard might not necessarily [I]win[/I]. But start off with the wizard flying and buffing himself with greater invisibility. Then casting Black Tentacles. The drow are grappled and at a huge disadvantage. They can't see the wizard and don't know where he is. Their wizard is not going to escape if he doesn't have spells he can cast without somatic components and without material components - the difference in grapple checks is huge. The tentacle's just going to slowly crush him. One down. (Even the L10 Str 22 fighter is trying to escape at a disadvantage). And the wizard was the dangerous one. Non-spellcasters are simple. Trap them in with a wall of force and drop a cloudkill on them. With tentacles already in there and the wall they aren't going to escape. Their spell resistance is worth nothing - it doesn't work on any of the spells you've just cast. (The real question is how long it will take the Cleric to escape the Black tentacles and whether he is likely to successfully dispel magic). Will this work against every group? 100% of the time? No. No more than a fighter will always hit. But assuming the already invisible and flying wizard gets the drop on the drow it stands a good chance. Which fits yor challenge. And [I]that's[/I] assuming you take defeat to mean kill, not defeat to mean bypass. A simple flight + invisibility or teleport will work to bypass the drow. You mean monsters with an anti-magic eye? Why do I think that that wasn't chosen at random. And this thread is about the [I]Wizard vs Warrior Balance[/I]. Power is relative. And relatively, the wizards, clerics, and druids have a lot of it. Relatively non-casters [I]don't[/I]. So you yourself admit that wizards win and other classes don't. A telling admission. But you have my motivation completely backwards. [I]I want to play a wizard[/I]. However, if I play a mid-high level wizard in 3.X I feel [I]dirty[/I]. I feel as if I've started using cheat codes. I want to play a wizard class that feels challenging and I want everyone else at the table to have fun too. I do not want to leave the DM in a situation where they have three choices - challenge my character, challenge everyone else and give me a very easy job, or set anti-magic fields everywhere. Even my low level 4e wizard is giving my DM headaches (but then so does my 4e monk and my 4e warlord). My second motivation is that I like upending situations and scenarios but [I]I want to feel a sense of accomplishment.[/I] The overwhelming out of combat power of the 3.X wizard takes that away from me. It feels cheap. [/QUOTE]

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