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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Raven Crowking" data-source="post: 5523549" data-attributes="member: 18280">Which is fine, and points to what is happening in this thread.  Is the "problem" a result of the rules?  No.  Is the "problem" the result of a set of expectations?  No.  Is it a result of the rules interfacing with specific expectations?  Yes.  How much of that is rules, and how much is expectation?  Dunno....that's sort of like asking "What are the right expectations to have?", where the only right answer is to unask the question.Nonsense.  The player can pick the spells and feats the rules allow him to pick, and still have a fine time with the game.  Or, at least, IMO and IME.  I mean, aren't we having this discussion with the same people who championed the 4e magic system because the wizard was too weak?  Am I the only one to remember that?  Once he ran out of his paltry spell allotment, the was reduced to flinging darts or plinking away with a crossbow?  Anyone?  Bueller?Within that context, this thread feels like:  My hat of d02 wizards know no limit.  It is too strong and too weak all at the same time.I remember arguing quite strenuously that the wizard had all sorts of things to contribute to the party; I am exceedingly happy to note that some of my prior detractors have now agreed with that position (even if I do feel they went overboard somewhat).I am very much looking forward to 5e, so that I can discover which of the many things about 4e, which I am now absolutely wrong about, I might be discovered to be less wrong about then.(Although I still say that now is not the right time for 5e, and WotC should wait until they have produced several 4e adventures that really kick-ass.  A new edition should come on the waning of a sales crest -- when people are excited about your products and the buzz is good.  IMHO.)RC</blockquote>

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