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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5525683" data-attributes="member: 87792">And not those needed to be *an adventurer*.  Someone who does something other than face people with pointy bits of metal on a training salon.So is the Bard's.  So is the Rogue's.  So is the Cleric's.  But that's not all they can do.  Far from it.   The problem here is that casting spells is not all the wizard or cleric can do.  Playing the lute is not all the bard can do.  Yet mysteriously you think that fighting should be all a fighter can do.  I see this as a double standard.No.  Commoner is an illustration not a goalpost.And I know a lot who were keen on the Bo9S because it finally gave fighters a way of keeping up.  Trying to defend that the fighter is a decent class is ... challenging.If I wanted an utterly flexible game I'd play GURPS.  The designs I'm thinking of represent modelling what happens in most actual games.  4e is more tightly focussed than 3.X.  But I have serious problems looking at a class and level based game and seeing something generic in there.Your way penalises the concepts I describe.  It penalises representing what I consider actual adventurers - what almost all groups play in 3.X. Then you misunderstood - and I was using your terminology.  BAB is one component of actual fighting.  If two people are mostly the same but one has a higher BAB then clearly one is better at actual fighting.  So are other things.  Damage is another component.  As I said, the tenth level (adventuring) wizard (high int, low strength) is better at fighting than the first level adventuring wizard.  His BAB has gone up by 5.  But even restricting the fighter to a staff, with the strength the average 1st level PC fighter gets the fighter is better at clobbering people over the staff than the wizard - he gets about the same to hit bonus, can use At Wills rather than a melee basic attack, and does far more damage per hit.  Where is the practical problem?Oh, games should always go there some of the time.  But people should not be forced to go there as a default because of bad class design.I have not misread the DMG in the slightest.  I am pointing out the definition of CR.  And the DMG then tells you not to use that number in the most basic way possible because it will be dull and annoying.</blockquote>

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