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How is the Wizard vs Warrior Balance Problem Handled in Fantasy Literature?
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<blockquote data-quote="Votan" data-source="post: 5526802" data-attributes="member: 18680"><p>I think that the issue is partially who the fighter competes against. A cleric who decides to be a leader is infinitely better suited for the role than a fighter (despite the weak skill points of the cleric). Ignoring spells that can assist, the presence of diplomacy and sense motive as class skills plus a strong will save make the clergy way better commanders than then the fighters. In a Drow city that simply makes sense. But it does not necessarily make it easy to model common "fighting man" archetypes.</p><p></p><p>Consider:</p><p></p><p>The grizzled NCO (who can't make a fear save)</p><p>The officer (who is a poor leader compared to the court musician)</p><p>The noble knight (who is tongue tied next to the cut-purse)</p><p>The seasoned mercenary (who is a poor judge of men next to the Druid)</p><p>The sentry (who has weaker perception skills than a commoner)</p><p></p><p>Even the barbarian (with will save adds in rage and 4 skill points per level) can be better at these roles. </p><p></p><p>In a sense, it is like phased in incompetence. A fighter will be hopeless at level appropriate challenges compared to the classes with a focus here. It's not that any of these is a particular issue -- it is that all of them are. </p><p></p><p>Now you could multi-class in Bard or Rogue. Few fantasy characters can actually be modeled without doing this and still have them as capable as they are.</p><p></p><p>Now why am I picking on the Fighter? Because it is the one class that seems to have been carefully slotted into a very narrow role whereas the other core classes do neat things in battle plus more. </p><p></p><p>The real competition is the rest of the party (at the levels that we are discussing where the fighter breaks down, the fighter is a fine class from levels 1 to 8). At 15th level, the CHA 8 rogue could still have a +17 Diplomacy check (making her easily able to do checks that the fighter cannot do). Level 4 commoners could easily have a +8 spot, that would be a major skill investment for a level 15 fighter. A wizard can't spot but they can use spells (e.g. Alarm, foresight, Moment of Prescience) to compensate. </p><p></p><p>Not to mention the Paladin or the Cleric who might be looking at a +25 sense motive check (18 ranks plus a 24 wisdom) ; the fighter will never be able to compete with this. EDIT: Only the Paladin and not the Cleric. Other Sense Motive classes were the Monk, the Bard and the Rogue. Of thsse, the Monk is the most obvious example. </p><p></p><p>I used to argue that (if there were not prestige classes of great merit floating around or anything special in epic) that a Fighter 16/Rogue 4 was superior to a Fighter 20 by so much it was painful. It also models a lot of historical warriors way, way better (giving some some competence at stealth or perception or judging people or diplomacy).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Votan, post: 5526802, member: 18680"] I think that the issue is partially who the fighter competes against. A cleric who decides to be a leader is infinitely better suited for the role than a fighter (despite the weak skill points of the cleric). Ignoring spells that can assist, the presence of diplomacy and sense motive as class skills plus a strong will save make the clergy way better commanders than then the fighters. In a Drow city that simply makes sense. But it does not necessarily make it easy to model common "fighting man" archetypes. Consider: The grizzled NCO (who can't make a fear save) The officer (who is a poor leader compared to the court musician) The noble knight (who is tongue tied next to the cut-purse) The seasoned mercenary (who is a poor judge of men next to the Druid) The sentry (who has weaker perception skills than a commoner) Even the barbarian (with will save adds in rage and 4 skill points per level) can be better at these roles. In a sense, it is like phased in incompetence. A fighter will be hopeless at level appropriate challenges compared to the classes with a focus here. It's not that any of these is a particular issue -- it is that all of them are. Now you could multi-class in Bard or Rogue. Few fantasy characters can actually be modeled without doing this and still have them as capable as they are. Now why am I picking on the Fighter? Because it is the one class that seems to have been carefully slotted into a very narrow role whereas the other core classes do neat things in battle plus more. The real competition is the rest of the party (at the levels that we are discussing where the fighter breaks down, the fighter is a fine class from levels 1 to 8). At 15th level, the CHA 8 rogue could still have a +17 Diplomacy check (making her easily able to do checks that the fighter cannot do). Level 4 commoners could easily have a +8 spot, that would be a major skill investment for a level 15 fighter. A wizard can't spot but they can use spells (e.g. Alarm, foresight, Moment of Prescience) to compensate. Not to mention the Paladin or the Cleric who might be looking at a +25 sense motive check (18 ranks plus a 24 wisdom) ; the fighter will never be able to compete with this. EDIT: Only the Paladin and not the Cleric. Other Sense Motive classes were the Monk, the Bard and the Rogue. Of thsse, the Monk is the most obvious example. I used to argue that (if there were not prestige classes of great merit floating around or anything special in epic) that a Fighter 16/Rogue 4 was superior to a Fighter 20 by so much it was painful. It also models a lot of historical warriors way, way better (giving some some competence at stealth or perception or judging people or diplomacy). [/QUOTE]
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