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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 5528784" data-attributes="member: 22779">Something that occurs to me about this entire conversation.  Every element that gets brought up focuses on one single game element - how to keep the casters from dominating the game.  This single thing influences so much of the game.I mean, take this sidebar about item attrition.  No one really worries about the fighter's items because, well, it doesn't really matter that much if he has a +2 or +3 sword by and large (other than those occassions where you REALLY need a +3 weapon.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /> )  But, we're stuck focusing on the idea that we have to enforce item destruction rules targetted pretty specifically at the casters (after all, their items are the ones that break the easiest) simply to keep the casters in line.((On a totally side note, scrolls weren't all THAT rare in the treasure tables - many included scrolls in addition to random magic items, and, scrolls often contained multiple spells, something you don't see in 3e.  It's not like we're talking about something that never occurs.  But, let's not lose sight of the fact that what brought this up was the discussion of the caster using about 10% of his wealth to create ONE HUNDRED scrolls - mostly a 2e and higher (2e allowed clerics to craft scrolls at 6th level) issue))Sorry about that sidebar.Look at the things that have been brought up in this thread.  The idea of tying doors shut, not to stop the rogue, but specifically to stop the Knock wand wielding wizard.  The rogue is fine, we want him to be able to open locks.  But, we have to go out of our way to make sure that the wizard isn't doing a better job of it than the rogue.Or, for another example, look at random encounters.  Why have random encounters if not to interrupt casters from regaining their spells.  People have specifically mentioned that 3e, with its lack of random encounters, has promoted the nova-caster.  But, the main reason we have random encounters in the first place isn't because it makes the setting more dynamic, because while there may be situations where having a random encounter check every ten minutes makes sense, there are many other situations where it doesn't, is to limit the casters.  Take the casters out of the equation, and you no longer need random encounters as a balancing mechanic.This informs adventure design as well.  The idea of time constraints and whatnot to make sure the casters don't take lots of time to rest between casting.  This has nothing to do with the non-casters.  A time constrained or non-time constrained adventure doesn't affect the non-casters whatsoever.  But, if we don't add in something like a time constraint, the casters can totally dominate many encounters.In other words, everything in this thread is in service to one thing - how do we limit the casters?  Do we really want the magic system to play such a massive role in the game?  Sure, you can continuously patch over the magic system - this thread shows lots of ways to keep the casters on par, but, at the end of the day, that means that the casters are the ones driving the campaign, even if it's only because the roadblocks are there to catch the casters.For my money, I'd much rather simply change the magic system in the first place.  Make it so that the game doesn't need to continuously try to patch over the casters dominating the game.  Sure, the wizard can cast Knock, fair enough.  But, Knock should give you Level +3 on a single Open Locks check.  There, now you gain the abilities of an equal level Rogue (almost) for the price of a spell.  Charms should whack on a great Diplomacy check, not be mind control (which they do eventually become).  Clerics don't really need the whole "I'm a better Fighter than you" spells to remain competitive.  Give them buffs, or better yet, group buffs, but ease up on the whole thing and let the fighters shine.Spells should not make you better than other classes at doing what those other classes do best.  They should bring you up to the same level for a little while, no problems there, but they shouldn't make me BETTER than the other classes.</blockquote>

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